When will they ever learn?

[JimW]

OK, I see what Bob means. I'm keen that overtaking under a yellow is penalised in a way which stops (well reduces) it happening. And drivers who do keep a look out and then do behave well need to have confidence that they do not loose out.

However, I don't think the "one penalty applies to all" is fair or reasonable. Look at what is normal in our judicial system. Constables have discretion to exercise in many circumstances. (Which of us has not benefited from a sarcastic reprimand and no prosecution/ticket?) Not sure we have an equivalent unless a shaken fist counts.

If prosecuted a distinction is made between a finding of guilt and what sentence is appropriate. It is at this stage that mitigating (or aggravating) factors should be taken into account. I think it is here that things go wrong with a number of clerks. Where a driver has a good reason why they overtook, I believe that they should still be found guilty but any discount applied in the sentence given out. Thus overtaking “a really slow driver and I was already committed” (if backed up by the observer) might only result in the offence being recorded on the licence and a reprimand. Dangerous or deliberate behaviour would be met with loss of times (best for the calculated offence) or exclusion.

To take a fairly scary example. I was trackside at the exit to a corner trying to help the marshals from the post shift two cars which had spun to the verge close to the track and become entangled. Waved yellows clearly displayed at a post which is clearly visible at the entrance to the corner. Two cars spun going under the yellow flag. Then there were several overtaking moves as the cars went past us. I don’t believe that any action was taken to deal with behaviour which put four or five of us at unnecessary risk. The course marshals had crossed the track (because there is no post that side) and we had come from the rescue unit some meters away. Too difficult to do anything then and no-one did get hurt but it does not encourage one to try and clear the track for racing without resorting to a safety car and consequent interruption to the racing.

Regards

Jim

[Bob Pearson]

Jim, The problem with the mitigating circumstances issue is that there are quite a few convincing liars about. I have heard young newcomers being coached by the team managers on how to crawl out of yellow flag infrongements. I know exactly what to say to get out of it, but my love for the sport and belief in the need to correct this problem meant that when I was twice caught for it under stationary yellows I simply owned up to the error and was duly excluded, quite right too. I know there will always be someone who has been caught by an unsighted post and if the one penalty for all is applied it will be harsh ( as I could claim it was on me) But I can see no other way to eradicate it, and I can still see in my mind the guy telling his driver of about 17 to say " I saw the flag and decided that it was too dangerous to lift off because of the close proximity of the cars around him" And guess what, he was let off!!

[se70]

I agree 100% that drivers who ignore yellows should be ticked off etc. I have been racing for 8 years and have been passed under yellows many times.

Only once, at Combe, have I been called in by the CoC who asked if I wanted him to "press charges" against the offending driver. I said no as it was at the end of the day, 4 hours from home, and when you're on the bottom rung of the motorsport ladder with no hope of ever winning anything I don't care if somebody gets docked a few points. He got ticked off though. It was reassuring to know driving standards were being monitored.

Personally, I couldn't live with myself if I seriously injured or killed a marshal/fellow driver from driving too fast under yellows.

I must say though, at Oulton a few weeks ago yellows were being waved at Fosters, I eased off and my evil-handling, misfiring Fiat spun (harmlessly). Very embarrassing.

[JimW]

Still not quite sure that I agree with Bob entirely. Believe me no-one is more aware of driver excuses than I or clerks.

In my suggested way of working "I saw the flag and decided that it was too dangerous to lift off " gets found guilty and the licence endorsed. And if the clerk could satisfy themself that this was not true (or perhaps unless the clerk could satisfy himself that it was true) then he get exclusion.

In a race I much prefer stop-and-go penalties.

I meant to say earlier that there is one outstanding problem and that is overuse of the yellow flag by marshals. Too many of us do it and we need to give more attention. Often it is a reaction to a perceived failure by drivers to react. I know it is difficult but if time/circumstances permit a raised hand or headlight flash is very reassuring sign that the flag has been seen. But I know that is not always possible.

Regards

Jim

[Bob Pearson]

I like the idea of stop/go penalties in races, but it is a whole new regime for club racing with pit lane speeds to be considered and so would probably not work as things stand.
I try to nod or something to reassure all that I have noticed, but since we had a few fools in F1 saying how they raised their hand but didn't slow down under yellows I am sure youngsters in their early years of racing will have been influenced by that irresponsible behaviour.

[Phoenix1]

One thing that I think racers often forget, often because we hate to think about it, is that the Marshall is the one who works for free and will come to our aid, maybe even save a limb or life. Marshalls are there for us and should be respected even in war people (mainly) do not fire on the red cross so come on give them room and slow down.

The worst offence I've witenessed was on an outdoor track. twin engine karts so getting up a good speed and with slicks in heavy rain and standing water yet when some one spun on the main straight 26 people slowed and one guy just carried on flat out past the marshalls who where restarting the kart. I was glad to see him getting a three minute penalty and from the looks of it a good *******ing from the Marshall. What made it worse, apart from the blatently obvious yellows, the fact I'd raised my hand to show I'd seen the Marshall and the fact it was raining was the fact we had started late because earlier someone had gone off badly and injured themselves. Maybe the worlds common sense should be put on these guys visors!

Lastly I agree with Bob on raisng hands and not slowing, I have to say Mika H was one of the worst for that. Shame for that was his only bad thing. At the end of the day, we slow and lose a few seconds we keep going and spin the Marshall could lose a limb, it's that simple.

[Sheila M]

Whilst I agree with you all that something has to be done to stop this practice, Clerks of the Course usually only have the Observer's reports to assist them in assessing the situation (unless they are at a circuit where video facilites are used). To this end, I would urge all Observers to be very careful how they write their reports on any infringement if they want the Clerk to take action. Having spent a few days in race control at various meetings I have seem some fairly abysmal reports from fairly senior Observers which actually raised doubts as to what really happened.

Personally, I would like all drivers who overtake under yellows to be shot but I don't think the Blue Book covers this!

[Red Dog]

I race with the 750mc and they are very stern with drivers who ignore or miss yellows. I have been on the receiving end and it was no laughing matter. Like being in the headmasters study, sunlight glinting off the cane in the corner......but I only got lines and a detention!

[JimW]

Originally posted by Red Dog
I race with the 750mc and they are very stern with drivers who ignore or miss yellows. I have been on the receiving end and it was no laughing matter. Like being in the headmasters study, sunlight glinting off the cane in the corner......but I only got lines and a detention!

Thanks for being honest Red Dog, but can you share with us how you felt about that experience ance did it change your approach to yellow flag situations in the future?

In your heart did you feel that you had overtaken? Was the report accurate? How did it affect safety and/or fairness to to other drivers who might have reacted differently.

Did you feel that a reprimand rather than £250 or exclusion or a ban was about right?

Perhaps most importantly, do you look at yellow flags differently now?

Not getting at you personally in any way; I really am just curious/interested. (After all I don't know who you are.)

Regards

Jim

[SimonR]

I am a racer and would like to thank the marshals who make it possible for me.

I agree with the general thread that if C of the C's were consistent and penalised and, where necessary, excluded people then everyone would know exactly where they stood and EVERYONE would slow down for the yellow zone.

When racing it is very difficult to lift off when you know that the people in front and behind may not. It is also easy to believe that you are fully in control, but you may not be aware of debris or oil which was not present the last time you passed that spot. If the consequences for NOT obeying flags were worse than for dis-obeying then all drivers would re-act accordingly.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by SimonR
I agree with the general thread that if C of the C's were consistent and penalised and, where necessary, excluded people then everyone would know exactly where they stood and EVERYONE would slow down for the yellow zone.

Which very neatly dodges the issue.....the old 'they should do something about it' cop-out.

It's your responsibilty to slow down for yellows, not the other drivers, not the CoC, not the flag marshal, not the man in the burger van. You do know where you stand - the Blue Book's clear enough.

[Bob Pearson]

Youre a bit hard on Simon I think Dave. In any group of people there will always be a percentage of villains, even among marshals. The element of villains among drivers will not slow down for yellows unless they know they will be excluded. My take on what Simon says is that he doesn't want to lose out everytime there is a yellow shown simply because the clerks don't have the nerve to come down hard on offenders.

[JR Ewing]

I think a fine would be very difficult to enforce and would just create very bad feeling.

My thoughts would be:

First offence:
Qualifying - sent to back of grid
Race - DQ from event.

Second offence:
Q/R - above plus exclusion from next event?

[SimonR]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Which very neatly dodges the issue.....the old 'they should do something about it' cop-out.

It's your responsibilty to slow down for yellows, not the other drivers, not the CoC, not the flag marshal, not the man in the burger van. You do know where you stand - the Blue Book's clear enough.

Dave,

I was not trying to dodge the issue, and I certainly know my responsibilities. I know the risks I take when racing, but I will never knowingly put anyone else at risk. If I do this I would expect to be penalised severely.

I was not trying to make any excuses, or to put the responsibility on anyone else. You are quite right that I am responsible for my own behaviour.

As Bob pointed out, there are drivers out there who will flount the rules because they know they are likely to get away with it. There is nothing that I can do as a driver about this. Those that enforce the rules can, and should.

This was the point I was trying to make.

[Flagman]

You could always protest - and demand to the see the timing charts for the session to see if the other driver had slowed down.

Of course you would need to be certain that they showed that you yourself had also slowed down more than the other guy.

[Bob Pearson]

Much better if everyone does their job, you report them, the clerk excludes them

[Dave Brand]

Sorry if my last post appeared a bit harsh - nothing personal!

However.....yesterday I marshalled at a bike meeting at Anglesey, at the hairpin. On a couple of occasions I was picking up a bike on the edge of the track while the race continued - I was happy doing this as I knew the riders would slow down enough to allow us to work in relative safety.

If I can trust bike riders, why can't I trust car drivers?

The problem with reporting failure to slow down for yellows is that we only have a subjective assessment of how fast a car was being driven; maybe observers shoild be equipped with radar guns!

I find it sad that we are even talking of enforcement, punishment, etc. Time for a little common sense?

[Asp]

I have to say a big well done to a group of FFord drivers on Saturday. Car off at Lakeside, so we had the waved yellow at Cascades with the stationary yellow at Avenue.
They came through Dentons pretty much at hammer and tongs with each other, and just as I thought we were going to have overtaking under yellow, they all slowed down, fell into line, and proceeded through the danger zone at much abated pace. In fact, we nearly applauded them for finishing the race! Proof that it can be done, even if you're in a right tussle for position.

[Woolley]

This is all part of a big circle, really. Falling marshalling numbers means that when yellows are out, often there's no marshals there because there aren't enough to do anything. If there's no marshals, the drivers don't slow down, so the marshals that are there won't go out. Because the marshals aren't really doing the job the way we used to, it's not so much fun, so there's fewer marshals.

OK, that's a bit simplistic, but I'd be interested to know what started it all going wrong. My guess is the days got longer a few years back, which started the decline. And of course since there's fewer marshals, the clear-ups not so quick, so the day gets longer...

The big question we all need to focus on, clubs, drivers, marshals, everyone, is how do we get it back to where it was 10 years ago?

[Bob Pearson]

I can shed a little light on Dave's question of why do bike racers slow down but not all car racers. Having done both I am sure it is because we feel much safer racing a car than a bike and so the mind set is different
Woolley is right, we should be trying to get it back to where it was 10 years ago, but how. I still go for the enforcement tactic, eventually all drivers will then toe the line ( apart from the inevitable occasional blunder) as the last thing a driver wants is exclusion. Fines are not appropriate and result in deep resentment as a club has no legal right to impose them and are only paid because a driver is afraid of having his next entry turned down. They are about as daft as me marching out to a marshalls post on the circuit and demanding £100 from one of you because I spun on some oil that wasn't flagged.

[JimW]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
. . . Fines are not appropriate and result in deep resentment as a club has no legal right to impose them and are only paid because a driver is afraid of having his next entry turned down. They are about as daft as me marching out to a marshalls post on the circuit and demanding £100 from one of you because I spun on some oil that wasn't flagged.

:confused:

No legal right to impose them? If you mean that fines imposed under the MSA Regulations cannot be "recovered/enforced" through the civil courts then perhaps you are right. But if you mean that a driver properly "fined" under MSA Regs cannot be excluded from the sport if they fail to pay up, then I think you will find that you are wrong.

There are plenty of cases where this has happened in the past.

Fines seem to me to be one perfectly sensible element in the range of sanctions available to Clerks in enforcing the rules. (Rare though we all hope any such breaches will be.)

(As for the oil, well if it worked both ways I reckon marshals might be in profit. )

Regards

Jim

[Bob Pearson]

Yes Jim, the legal right was what I was referring to. Another problem with fines is that the rich guy will think it was money well spent to try to gain an advantage and so they don't work as a deterrent to him. The bottom line is always exclusion or loss of time. That hurts no matter how rich you are!!

[Sheila M]

Perhaps we should combine this thread with the one I started yesterday about the Star of the Midlands at Mallory. The FFord boys reacted brilliantly to flag signals.

I am aware that everyone is insisting that Clerks come down hard on miscreants but I have to reiterate my earlier comments - unless the Observers write clear, concise reports WITH NO MARGIN FOR ARGUMENT, the Clerks' hands are tied. I have spoken with an MSA Steward regarding this and he agrees with me about the way reports are written. We cannot keep bleating on about drivers not obeying flag signals and then getting the reports wrong.

My own personal view is that any driver overtaking under a yellow should receive a minimum of a written reprimand and a fine, which then gives him 3 points on his Licence. He/she should also be made to spend a day on a marshal's post (preferably on a day when it's cold, wet ...).

If ever I get the opportunity to reach the dizzy heights of race clerk make no mistake I WILL be severe with offenders!

[JimW]

Originally posted by delta25
. . . He/she should also be made to spend a day on a marshal's post (preferably on a day when it's cold, wet ...).

I don't think marshalling should be used as a punishment. Or should we put these miscreants in the pits?

Regards

Jim

[Sheila M]

I wasn't thinking of marshalling as a punishment more of a way of showing the driver the error of his ways. However, yes put them in the pits by all means - now that would be a punishment, especially if I had my broomstick with me!

Regards

Sheila