MSA licence renewal

[GORDON STREETER]

YIPPY Got my temp licence this morning. The only problem is it expires before my first meeting !!

[Peter Mallett]

Ditto.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

MSA credit card licences, as I understand, will eventually be able to store data such as details on medical/injury history, penalties, upgrades, events at which they have participated and etc., and will be able to be properly linked with the IT system at the MSA.

Oh joy more big brother stuff. I wonder how this will enhance my racing experience.

Originally Posted by touring fan01

They have to start somewhere, to make their systems more efficient and up-to-date and if you think using a scrappy piece of paper as a licence is an up-to-date way of going about things, then I'm afraid you must be a bit of a luddite.

Being out of the country most of the time I'm not sure if this was announced. If it was then they knew well in advance what they needed to do. If it wasn't then its something that has been foisted upon us and therefore could be a problem (see Gordon's post).

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Just about every major motorsport body in the world uses card style licences, so obviously there is a good reason to change or no other country would also have done it - or perhaps those here that bemoan the introduction of them are 'experts' and know far better...........

The others, as far as I am aware, did not have this problem. I do race abroad, does that make me an expert? Hmm, not sure.

Originally Posted by touring fan01

And no, I'm neither an MSA 'blazer' or someone who works there (but know people who do). What I also am not is someone who thinks the whole world should just stand still, leave things as they are and not try and improve.

But I guess I also don't miss old school technology such as carburettors, coils and drum brakes either. I suppose it's no coincidence that most of those here that are simply against the introduction of the new licences, judging by their avatars, race or prefer historic or older cars?......

Actually you appear to be so far up your own rear end you've missed the point, which is, the level of efficiency displayed by this debacle is beyond comprehension. So stop defending your friends.

For your education, I have found the people in the MSA throughout this period to be more than helpful and I would not wish them ill. However they, the people that we interface with, (there you go, modern speak) are the victims of a very poorly managed roll out of technology or possibly systems that are alien to them (if this has not been through a beta test). Frankly I'd sack the management forthwith for not doing their job.

And one more point, I don't hide behind a handle. You can reach me through my website or here anytime. However I don't know who you are so do not hurl insults at people safe in the knowledge that you can remain anonymous.

[Piglet]

As a race admin bod I'm not aware that we'll be having card readers this year or that swiping your card will in anyway replace "signing on" - even if we could swipe your licence we'd need you to sign to verify that it was you and to confirm your acceptance to the MSA declaration.

From my point of view the old licences worried me hugely - you got to stick your picture of it as many times as you want over a season - so how do I know that the person who turns up with Peter Mallet's licence with a picture on it that looks like the person signing on really is Peter Mallet and that he didn't just find the licence in the paddock and put his own picture on it and learn to fake the signature? It's one of the reasons why a number of clubs would make you leave your licence for the duration of your meeting even if you didn't want a signature so that if it was a bent licence and you (or any one else ended up in the med centre or worse) we could at least demonstrate that you had fruadulantly used the licence and that we hadn't been negligent in taking a licence that didn't match the person who signed on.

The old licence had no real ability to identify under 18 drivers who needed a parent etc to countersign them which was also problematic - some 16 year olds are obvious but lots of them aren't (at my advanced age!).

Did I mention the photocopied licences? Seen a couple of those - presented by drivers who had "brought the wrong version, the one with a signature signed on and a photo stuck on the photocopy was just a spare that they kept in case they lost the original

I'm glad to see credit card licences, the MSA hae clearly had problems getting them sorted but hopefully once they get this sorted it'll make life easier for all of us.

[touring fan01]

So tell me Mr Mallett....how many people have not been able to compete due to this problem? None.

What real effect has this problem had on you, or other competitors? None.

You race overseas (so do many others of us) so that makes you uniquely qualified to judge if other governing bodies have had such problems? Tell me, exactly how would you know? You have raced in all the countries around the world have you? You have dealt with all the other countries licencing departments have you?

and tell me;
Are you 100% efficient 100% of the time?
Have you never made a mistake or never had an unforseen problem?
Have you never had any car or equipment fail on you, no matter how well or efficiently you think you prepared it?

When you, I, every company and every person in this world are absoltuely perfect then we are entitled to belittle the effort of others........

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Piglet

As a race admin bod I'm not aware that we'll be having card readers this year or that swiping your card will in anyway replace "signing on" - even if we could swipe your licence we'd need you to sign to verify that it was you and to confirm your acceptance to the MSA declaration.

From my point of view the old licences worried me hugely - you got to stick your picture of it as many times as you want over a season - so how do I know that the person who turns up with Peter Mallet's licence with a picture on it that looks like the person signing on really is Peter Mallet and that he didn't just find the licence in the paddock and put his own picture on it and learn to fake the signature? It's one of the reasons why a number of clubs would make you leave your licence for the duration of your meeting even if you didn't want a signature so that if it was a bent licence and you (or any one else ended up in the med centre or worse) we could at least demonstrate that you had fruadulantly used the licence and that we hadn't been negligent in taking a licence that didn't match the person who signed on.

The old licence had no real ability to identify under 18 drivers who needed a parent etc to countersign them which was also problematic - some 16 year olds are obvious but lots of them aren't (at my advanced age!).

Did I mention the photocopied licences? Seen a couple of those - presented by drivers who had "brought the wrong version, the one with a signature signed on and a photo stuck on the photocopy was just a spare that they kept in case they lost the original

I'm glad to see credit card licences, the MSA hae clearly had problems getting them sorted but hopefully once they get this sorted it'll make life easier for all of us.

Excellent points....at last some common sense.

[Peter Mallett]

Piglet.

All you mention are the points I was allouding to, I'm certain it will'br finr but you can't ask people to accept change without either telling them why (& this may have been done, or teling them the behefits).

Originally Posted by touring fan01

So tell me Mr Mallett....how many people have not been able to compete due to this problem? None.

What real effect has this problem had on you, or other competitors? None.

Are you 100% efficient 100% of the time?
Have you never made a mistake or never had an unforseen problem?
Have you never had any car or equipment fail on you, no matter how well or efficiently you think you prepared it?

When you, I, every company and every person in this world are absoltuely perfect then we are entitled to belittle the effort of others.

Ok rol whateveryourname is (and yes I actually do know who you are) I suspect nobody has been inconvenienced so far but that doesn't mean this has been anything less than inefficient.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Excellent points....at last some common sense.

Blimey, I'll frame that, I don't hear that very often

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

What real effect has this problem had on you, or other competitors? None.

Can we reserve judgment on that until the first meetings of the season are out of the way and see how many times I have to run up to see the Stewards with a driver who hasn't received their licence

[Suze]

I know of an F Vee driver (no not Sam!) who was due to compete at Mallory this weekend and only realised last weekend he'd forgotten to renew his license. He spoke to the MSA on Monday to get everything in to them and pay for the express service but they couldn't 100% guarantee they'd get the license back to him in time whilst paying for the express service. Yes, he was pretty silly to leave it so late but the long and short of it is he won't be racing at Mallory tomorrow. I believe this is partly down to the license situation from what he's said so he decided to deal with his losses (eg entry fee). He hasn't mentioned anything about temp licenses so not sure why he hasn't explored that alternative, but the main point is the MSA couldn't be sure their express service would be just that, express...

[Piglet]

Not sure I've got much sympathy for him Suze. It's not rocket science to renew a licence is it?

Did he ask them to issue a fax for him? Ahh thinking about it they probably can't if he hasn't sent his application in already. If he only sent it on Monday, even with good post they wouldn't have it until Tuesday and if he wanted it for Saturday post he'd have been pushing it in the normal course of events wouldn't he?

[Tim Falce]

Can he not pay the £40 on the day for not having his licence with him?

[Suze]

No, I agree He thinks he's pretty silly to have forgotten too, FWIW.

No don't think they could have sent a fax...would have been pushing it but point more is / was due to current probs they weren't sure they could do the three day turnaround. I presume it could have been sent guaranteed next day delivery ie would be with MSA on Tuesday, so yes would have still been pushing it.

If you wanted your license for two weeks time, for example, you'd go for the express service - but still wouldn't be convinced (from what the MSA have said about express service and times) that it'd be back in time.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Can he not pay the £40 on the day for not having his licence with him?

Only if a licence has been issued to him and if he hadn't applied by Monday that was likely to be tricky. He has to sign the declaration that said he has a 2007 race licence.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Can he not pay the £40 on the day for not having his licence with him?

I personally didn't know you could do that, and he hasn't said anything about that option after his discussions with the MSA. Would that be possible though? Would presume he'd have to have a current (2007) license still?

[Piglet]

To clarify there are a couple of options with a fax from the MSA.

Fax 1 - no fee to the driver where the MSA haven't managed to get the licence issued in time, only used where the MSA is at fault. The MSA fax confirms that the licence has been issued but has not reached the driver (effectively)

Fax 2 - driver still pays a non production fee, used where the MSA have issued a licence but the driver has lost, mislaid, eaten, washed etc. the licence. The MSA fax confirms that a licence has been issued but the fine is still payable.

In this case I imagine that they were not able to confirm that the licence had been issued.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Suze

I personally didn't know you could do that, and he hasn't said anything about that option after his discussions with the MSA. Would that be possible though? Would presume he'd have to have a current (2007) license still?

You can do it if you forget or lose your licence, but not sure if it works if you don't actually posses a current one.
Edited: What Piglet said

[Suze]

He has no-one to blame but himself for not managing to organise himself, but it echoes what someone said much earlier in the thread about the MSA not being sure their express service is / can be operated in the time limits they specify.

[terence]

Lets face it ,the MSA certainly seem to have bitten off more than they can chew,What with the HTP,and the New Style License,it makes you wonder if any of this was actually planned!!!

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

.......What real effect has this problem had on you, or other competitors? .......

Clearly much money has been wasted, sorry spent, sorry invested, therefore our licences cost more than they need to. Far more. And the point is, we were never consulted. Even if they were determined to do it, explaining the benefits in advance would have been a simple courtesy. Doing it with no price increase would be better. And not doing it would be better still.

[Tim Falce]

Why would they want to consult you. Did the DVLA consult you when the new licenses were brought in or did VOSA consult you when the MOT test was computerised, no. I would have thought the changes are for the MSA's benefit not ours.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Clearly much money has been wasted, sorry spent, sorry invested, therefore our licences cost more than they need to. Far more. And the point is, we were never consulted. Even if they were determined to do it, explaining the benefits in advance would have been a simple courtesy. Doing it with no price increase would be better. And not doing it would be better still.

Sorry, but you are clearly wrong;

1. It was actually announced/details published months ago (i.e. last year) in the MSA magazine that is distributed to every licence holder - I remember it even included a picture of the new card. So you were advised and the benefits explained, but obviously you don't read what the MSA send you?

2. You really think they should consult with every person in motorsport every time they want to do something with their systems? With respect, that's a nonsensical notion.

3. There is no price increase to us. Our licence fee went up by the normal annual inflationary increase, just the same as most other years.

[Peter Mallett]

So er,

They knew there'd be difficulties way back then. Thanks for that.

just to add a non controversial point. last year it took three weeks to renew my licence, which inluded the ECG etc. cos I'm older than my car. Even with new technology it defeats me as to why it is taking so long this year.

[touring fan01]

[QUOTE=Peter Mallett]So er, They knew there'd be difficulties way back then. Thanks for that. QUOTE]

Ever tested your car before a race meeting, found it's absolutely fine and then gone to a race meeting and had problems with it?

Errrm, like I said....let me know when your car, your preparation and your driving is absolutely perfect, faultless or never without any difficulties or problems.

Until then, with respect, it's very easy to be just another 'armchair expert' who thinks they know how everything should happen.

So, the next time you have a mechanical problem with your race car, I guess I should come up to you and tell you that "you should have known" ?

Oh, that's right...you wouldn't have any problems with your car because nothing unforeseen ever goes wrong, does it, no matter how well it's prepared?

Uhuh......

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Errrm, like I said....let me know when your car, your preparation and your driving is absolutely perfect, faultless or never without any difficulties or problems.

Until then, with respect, it's very easy to be just another 'armchair expert' who thinks they know how everything should happen.

So, the next time you have a mechanical problem with your race car, I guess I should come up to you and tell you that "you should have known" ?

Oh, that's right...you wouldn't have any problems with your car because nothing unforeseen ever goes wrong, does it, no matter how well it's prepared?

Uhuh......

I really do think you should sit back and smell the coffee.

If my car goes wrong its my problem. If the system falls over in the MSA its up there for grabs. You cannot believe that this is anything other than a failure. And if (although you deny it) you are involved then you really need to look at this or somebody does. Nobody is going to die so let's stop being defensive. However expectations have been impacted and for a service to do this it is unacceptable. Make no mistake the MSA is a service because we pay for the privilege of racing.

So I for one expect more from those to whom I pay for a service. If you don't see it that way tough. But don't try to defend the indefensible, offer solutions please.