Alternative ideas for new classes

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

What would the running costs be though? Although you're not using any performance parts how much are replacement panels? Rallycross being what it is you're going to need a steady supply of bumpers and panels - from what I've seen parts for Evos and Imprezas are big money. Also if something mechanical does break the cost of a replacement will be significant. The initial purchase cost may be low (relatively speaking) but I suspect the running costs would be significant.

Panels for older Scoobys are fairly cheap - typically £60ish for front wings, about the same for bumpers. Bonnets between £60-130 depending on model. Performance parts? Well, you can get expensive kit for any performance car but the regs could limit this. Of course you would need specialist advice as with any class but there is a lot of it about. A lot of these cars do end up in salvage yards for obvious reasons so there is quite a bit of stuff out there in terms of parts.

In any class there is the problem of excessive spending (look at junior minis or Modifieds!) but I don't think winning would be everything in this class as people just like racing these cars. And of course you could have weight penalties for those consistently successful to keep the field together - thus discouraging excessive spending.

[MESHGA]

It seams through our thoughts this has sparked of quite a lot of interest so why dont some of us who can do something about it ?
Go with whats been talked about on here ! run standard everything bar induction kit ,saftey kit ,plastic glass and maybe very basic uprated suspention.
If i was to ask all you guys out there whos up to build a "A4dable cross" car how many will???

[schanche]

Originally Posted by Barrie

Why not just go with Euro classes Div 1A and Div 2, just a thought.

That would mean we would be the same as the rest of europe and some of our drivers could compete in ERC events and maybe do well could even produce a champion why on earth would we want to do that..

On a serious note some Interesting comments being made for and against think it will be just a case of wait and see.
Also in France they run the Logan Rallycross Cup one make series be interesting to see if any other partys have any tech info on that series along the similar lines as the swift cup

[Cujo]

Originally Posted by Robert Morris

cujo you thinking of doing something different then?

Maybe, Rob, maybe - budget 4wd does appeal

[leonidas]

A stock 4wd class would certainly tempt me. The number of clubmen who compete in clubmen spec 4wd in rallying suggests there is a possible crossover market here too. Would also be good to see an initiative suggested by this board actually taking off! We are always accused of being negative...! ;-)

Take the point about the Logan Cup but realistically it wouldn't be much more cost-effective than the Swift. A 1.6 costs about £9k and the gravel kit is almost £5k. I'm not even sure you can get a Logan in the UK all that easily?

[subaru man]

we ran our first subaru standard for the first year the only problem we had was the gear box striping all the teeth off third gear in the standard box when we started to do the engine mods.and when you go for the big bhp it realy starts to cost money we think we have our cars with as much power as we can get now and have the engine last. they have to last as the rebuild costs are big as kevin and simon can tell you . so keep them standard and you will have some great fun with them i did . michael morris
ps ...we are trying to have 4 subaru's out this year under our team banner here in ireland two will be fairly standard so see how they go.

[MESHGA]

Originally Posted by subaru man

we ran our first subaru standard for the first year the only problem we had was the gear box striping all the teeth off third gear in the standard box when we started to do the engine mods.and when you go for the big bhp it realy starts to cost money we think we have our cars with as much power as we can get now and have the engine last. they have to last as the rebuild costs are big as kevin and simon can tell you . so keep them standard and you will have some great fun with them i did . michael morris
ps ...we are trying to have 4 subaru's out this year under our team banner here in ireland two will be fairly standard so see how they go.

Hi Michael!
so you saying we arent talking out of our arse's then?
tell me if i wrong ! for no more than £6000 a good car (race winner)
could be built?


If this is so surely this is the way forward?

CHEERS

As said before this will bring in all types of new outside interest who have never been interested in RX Each round could be sponsered but a regional club or supplier for jap parts!
These cars could be the next stockhatch ! what we dont want is a named supplier of kits ,this 1 has to be open to where you want to buy or be given!
Seal cars in all the usual places before the cars first meeting/race of the season then check as required ! Then check top 10 end of season !
Its quite easy it was done in s/h to nobody could be bothered 2004 i think wasnt?????

[Thundersports]

Like the idea of sucess ballast to curb big spending or cheating, that would get round the problems that I posted earlier in the thread. I toyed (for several years) and was offered alot of help by Terry to do stockhatch but I ummed and arrghed about it and didn't do it because in the end the cars just didn't do it for me. However a budget 4x4 series sensibly run would certainly float a few boats.

[flying flynn]

I agree the BMWs have not been pushed hard this year, however they have real potenmtial, with Conor finishing 3rd overall in the Superfinal at pembrey in his BMW [Rally car at £3300] . They can be built very cheaply and win, there are features going in 2 bmw magazines, plus a GQ lifestyle mag special, plus a test for the rally & Rallycross cars in MN, so hopefully it will produce a full grid plus some.
Big problem this year is work or lack of it, meaning me chasing work, rather than having more time to buuild up publicity for the Championships. That can hopefully be turned around over the downtime season.
Ask Rewsy, he has been building his for 8 months, but its hard to find spare cash at the moment, so I think any new class needs to offer Cheap, fun Racing.
My rally championships also offer prizes, If we get the bMW grids in rallycross, expect the winner to get help to go Ice Driving in Sweden. that would be a first if you get a decent prize for winning !!!
Pat

[silver bullet]

IMHO rallycross does not need anymore classes. OK maybe a well promoted one make series with some sort of manufacturer/dealer or other outside influence might succeed. If it is run well it could bring in some new drivers, and raise the profile of the sport, but any other new class will just dilute a shallow pool of competitors even further.

Ideas have been raised about a budget 4WD class, but surely there are already classes where these cars can race. If you do not fancy going out with the full blown Supercars what about 'Revivals A' The BTRDA had a class last year for clubman Supercars, and there was very little interest. I am sure if there is renewed interest that the BTRDA could be persuaded to reintroduce it.


Whatever car anybody wants to build there is probably already a class that it will fit right into.
As far as I can make out these are next years classes

BRDA
Supercar
Supermodified
Suzuki Swift
Juniors

BTRDA
Supercar??????? (if there is an interest, possible)
Supermodified (class split into:- under 1600cc, over 1600cc, & modified 2l)
Stockhatch (class split A 16v, & B 8v)
Juniors

Open
Division 1
Division 1a
Supernational
Procar 2000
Procar 1600
Revivals (class split A,B,C,D, & E)
BMW's
Minicross
Juniors

Is there really a need for any more?

[BertMk2]

Is the MDA's MINI class going ahead next year? If so that's another one and then there's the RX150's as well.

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Is the MDA's MINI class going ahead next year? If so that's another one and then there's the RX150's as well.

Oh yeah I forgot about the MDA bringing in the BMW Mini's. Are they looking at them as an eventual replacement for the BMC/BL Mini's.

Oh and the RX150's are not rallycross, they are off road racers

[leonidas]

I think the 4wd class we are suggesting would be very different from the BTRDA Supercar class or Revivals. This would be a carefully controlled stock formula limited to certain 4wd cars with comparable performance.

The idea is that this would appeal to new people - the hundreds of fans interested in these types of cars but who can't/don't want to spend large amounts of money on stage rallying - many who have perhaps done no form of motorsport before.

There are too many classes but this is because new classes are launched without any real thought about whether there is a new market or not. (How many people really get excited by any Suzuki with more than two wheels??) The 4wd class would build on an established car following (the Evo, Scooby crowd) - probably the biggest in the UK today.

For what its worth my class structure would be simple:

4wd Supercar (developing into Div 1 when possible)
4wd Stock
2wd Modified (developing into Div 1a when possible)
2wd Stock (with 2l and 1.6 subclasses)
One makes series (minicross etc)

[MESHGA]

My thoughts exactly!!!

Re thought into new classes! Did any of the "normal" BDRA members ever get asked if these changes was a good idea? like a questionair ?

Not sure if "STOCK" is a good name as said before lots of time as it brings stockcars into mind! If you didnt notice i sort of come up with a quick name for them "A4dable cross" but if any of you have a better catchier name feel free to offer it up!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by leonidas

For what its worth my class structure would be simple:

4wd Supercar (developing into Div 1 when possible)
4wd Stock
2wd Modified (developing into Div 1a when possible)
2wd Stock (with 2l and 1.6 subclasses)
One makes series (minicross etc)

I think the 2wd modified is fine as supermodified - this allows the semi-spaceframes, Div1a and Div2 cars to all be included. You seem to be ignoring Div2 competely and if you go to Div1a then you lose the engineering challenge that supermodified can be (look at cars like Collins Tigra, the Ka, the Clios etc - all great cars). Keeping 2wd modified more open also allows rallycars to play in things like the winter series (ok - I'm biased on that one ).

Theoretically there is nothing to stop people running 'stock' Imprezas in the BTRDA supercar championship - do we need a seperate class for them? Ok someone could come in with a full on supercar and blow them into the weeds but where's the appeal in that?

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by leonidas

I think the 4wd class we are suggesting would be very different from the BTRDA Supercar class or Revivals. This would be a carefully controlled stock formula limited to certain 4wd cars with comparable performance.

As there are currently no cars competing in either Revivals A or BTRDA Supercar, surely this would be an ideal place for the budget/stock/standard 4WD's

Originally Posted by leonidas

For what its worth my class structure would be simple:

4wd Supercar (developing into Div 1 when possible)
4wd Stock
2wd Modified (developing into Div 1a when possible)
2wd Stock (with 2l and 1.6 subclasses)
One makes series (minicross etc)

I sort of agree with this, but I would also split the Modified into subclasses of over & under 2.0l
I would also add a class for Historics & Juniors.

Originally Posted by MESHGA

Not sure is "STOCK" is a good name as said before lots of time as it brings stockcars into mind! If you didnt notice i sort of come up with a quick name for them "A4dable cross" but if any of you have a better catchier name feel free to offer it up!

750 MC have no trouble with the word stock. Their Stockhatch class has some of the biggest entries of any formula in the country.
If people are so against the word stock why not replace it with the word production.

[PhergAthor]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

IMHO rallycross does not need anymore classes. OK maybe a well promoted one make series with some sort of manufacturer/dealer or other outside influence might succeed. If it is run well it could bring in some new drivers, and raise the profile of the sport, but any other new class will just dilute a shallow pool of competitors even further.

Ideas have been raised about a budget 4WD class, but surely there are already classes where these cars can race. If you do not fancy going out with the full blown Supercars what about 'Revivals A' The BTRDA had a class last year for clubman Supercars, and there was very little interest. I am sure if there is renewed interest that the BTRDA could be persuaded to reintroduce it.


Whatever car anybody wants to build there is probably already a class that it will fit right into.
As far as I can make out these are next years classes
Is there really a need for any more?

You are so right! More classes will kill RX.

BRDA
Supercar Evolve to Div1 euro regs
Supermodified Class for all 2WD cars
Suzuki Swift IMHO a start to D1a, when these cars are developped
Juniors nice toys for the kiddies

BTRDA
Supercar??????? (if there is an interest, possible) just don't start it, it's never going to take off
Supermodified (class split into:- under 1600cc, over 1600cc, & modified 2l) just about right
Stockhatch (class split A 16v, & B 8v) I would prefer 1 clubman stockhatch class, the step-in class
Juniors is there need to run juniors in BRDA and BTRDA?

Open
Division 1 but why the exceptions?
Division 1a I really hope this class gets a kick-start in the UK
Supernational same as supermodified BRDA
Procar 2000 expanding the lives of 2L GrN, just let the drivers build it into supermodified cars
Procar 1600 other name for stockhatch
Revivals (class split A,B,C,D, & E) historic rally anyone?
BMW's are a part of supermodified, why another class?
Minicross I actually like these
Juniors same as BRDA/BTRDA

What strikes me is the need for many winners and champions, even if they only have to beat themself to achieve it, split up in 3 series. Time to introduce the word synergy in UK rallycross.

My vision on UKRX:
1 National Championship to give titles for the best in:
*Division 1 (and put in the rules now that 2012 is the last year a GrB is allowed)
*Division 1a (let them run with supermodified as long as there are less than 5 starters, but with seperate points)
*Supermod (and decide now if spaceframing is still allowed after 2012, give fix technical regs for at least 3 years)
*a one make championship could be included as per the French example. Many of the Saxo's and C2's now drive in other classes. I can see the Swift do the same, and I bloody love the S1600 Swift.
*juniors

1 clubman championship
*Modified +2000cc
*Modified +1600cc-2000cc
*Modified -1600cc
*Minicross
*Stockhatch

And I also don't like the idea of different classes competing in an end of the day superfinal. Ok, it's an extra final, but if you run mixed classes than you only need 1 class afterall. The overall champion decided in the superfinal also takes away credit of the titles of the classes other than the Supercars.

[leonidas]

Yes in principle I'd have no objection to Revivals A and BTRDA Supercar effectively turning into this class BUT for the initiative to be successful you would need a common set of regulations that would ensure that only production cars could run in class - and that only approved models with comparable performance could run.

You'd also want to market the initiative under one name 'Production Supercars' or whatever and run it as one championship, encourage common scrutineering standards etc so people could have confidence in it.

As such an initiative is not really treading on anyone's toes (these existing classes are moribund), what do the two main championship organisers have to lose?

[MESHGA]

Yes i do agree with you David as you know we are on common ground on most things But!!!!
If we (as in someone can make this happen) it would be very good to call it something very different to "stock" as we have been there and all done that! and numbers a getting fewer which i cant explain other than state of financial climate or people are just feed up with it and want to do something else which appeals to them which isnt there at mo!So its our chance to rename and move forward !

Procar is a great move on class which is faster than some thought it might be! Im fully behind this for various reasons , but i bet there loads of budding drivers who have watched super car / div 1 and wished they had £100000 but havent! and only want to do them as the other classes "do nothing" for them . But this 4x4 class built around a standard car is the next best thing !

[Rewsy]

Do any of the championships have working groups, I know that they have various class representatives (normally one person) but if you had a working group that met every few months (i.e: every other event) you could probably get a wider consensus as I agree that the class are perhaps far to diverse across both the BRDA and RXOC.

From my perspective, as Flying Finn (Pat) says I have been building my BMW for best part of the year, the parts are widely available and cheap in comparison and as Conor proved in the right hands will I think be up there obviously in their own events but also Supermods, I certainly plan next year to support the RXOC in the BMW class and indeed the Supermods in the BRDA, so it will be good to see how compare and I reckon all in given the tight regs (basically all standard except safety gear) £3,000 for the car. I had raced in Stock hatch previously and was contemplating it before I saw the BMW going ahead and I reckon it was a cheap fun alternative, which being a clubman was what it was all about.

I like the idea of a budget 4x4, but I think quickly even that could get very expensive to source parts etc for, but I do think most comments on here are right in that decision on new classes etc get decided by the few on behalf of the many, but I suppose as drivers/competitors we all need to get involved, I for one will through my hat into the ring in terms of putting together some kind of clubman working party to discuss how events/classes are structured, who will join me!!

[MESHGA]

Thats a good idea mate!! Problem is you have to get past the big "noises" if you know what i mean!
There was a "working group" but it proved to be very difficult to agree on many things! enough said i think on that matter!
A drivers group is ideal totally removed from ORGS from both promotions
The BRDA did start off as this once !!

[66motorsport]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

Is there really a need for any more?

Yes, yes there is...

I think the main idea for the Production 4WD class is for someone at the event, or watching on TV that then thinks, "Christ, I could do that!!" and off they go, jump on ebay, find a Scoob/Evo etc, bang a cage in it, plastic windows, some light suspension mods, rubber and away you go, knowing, that when you rock up to the circuit and pass scruitineering, you will sit on the grid with a fighting chance for success.

I think thats the point, it's making 4WD Rallycross available. As already said, I'd love 100k in the bank and go and play with Kev P, The Dorans & Lawrence etc, but I don't, so the idea of being able to powerslide through Chessons in a 4WD car is making the dream possible, that most people otherwise wouldn't get to experience.

In the same breath, I don't think that they should run (If it takes off) the Prodiction Class with the Supercars, as they are what they are, Supercars and I think that running them together would detract from both classes as The Supercar's would demolish the Production cars, and that would not be a good look for the Production Car's.

I also think It's bloody stupid to get rid of Stockhatch from the BRDA, it gives no vison of accessibility to the sport, where you are left with Supercar's (Too much money for the punter), SuperMod (Can be too much money and not everyone can build one, may not want 2WD), Suzuki's (I'll say it, what a Joke), or Juniors for the parents with money to throw around. So leaves nothing to the desire of someone that wants some fun they can build themselves.... Throw a production 4WD class in there and away you go....

[tkiwan]

Well we have being building an EVO for the last while so hopefully it will be out for first round in Mondello in October.
http://file051a.bebo.com/1/original/...543468197o.jpg

[MESHGA]

Ive been talking to various people today and it seams that it is quite apparent that rules need to be very straight forward !
So is everybody agreeing that it should be for cars over or new than 10 years old?
I would prefer 10 and over (cost) leave it up to drivers what to use but if some model was so much faster extra wieght carried (can be put in rules)
Tyres free as i think thats another point what drivers dont like being told what to use!
But the main point is that the rule police have to be on duty !

[WJM]

I think a stock 4wd class will be a big letdown if you see them drive. They will be very slow and very unspectacular. Modern day Div1 cars already look like they drive on rails.
I also think people underestimate the speed of Supermods and top stockhatches and overestimate the speed of the bottomhalf of the supercars. I firmly believe a welldriven "stock" 4WD car will not finish last in Div1.

They should stop making classes for every single car someone somewhere wants to drive. The good thing about rallycross is that you might be in the same class with Proctor and Doran, but you'll always drive against people who do the same times as you. On the final timetables you will be blown away, but the actual races could still be pretty exciting. If you want to win actual tin cups, go to a lower class!!

There is an almost universal rule in motorsports: The man who spends the most money wins. And somebody will always spend more than you.