Alternative ideas for new classes

[66motorsport]

First Post!! Woo!

I'll agree with the earlier concensus that a "budget" 4WD class is the way forward. I'm starting preparing for next season for me and my Brother to race. I'm going into SuperMod, and he's going into Stockhatch B.

If it were an ideal world, I would prefer a 4WD tool without the Supercar price tag and my brothers lack of experience put's him in the catchment for the Suzi's I suppose (Novice, no Mechanical Knowledge etc etc).

However, one supplier = problems, seen it in other formula's and ruin's a competitive side of the sport in prep I believe. Also, if it does turn out to be 14k, they can jump, it's just not worth it. If they want a one make series, then set out the regs, seal the engines and let the competitor build their own or pay for it to be done as they see fit....

Just my impressions and quite looking forward to it bing shaken down on Monday...

[bucko]

i remeber not long ago Paul Waldron was sorting out a evo series but there was no takers these where the older evo cant remeber what spec but do know they where cheaper than the swifts

[66motorsport]

Originally Posted by MESHGA

Has anybody some ideas?

Yep, and I'll stay on my soapbox about it, budget 4WD/Group N Class. £14k is a lot of money, for what, in reality I think, is not a lot of car...

Just had a sniff on a well known Motorsport site and there is a Group N Scooby for less than £10k, surely it makes more sense....

Top looking car though and well pedaled by AJ.

[tbtstt]

Sorry everyone, massively behind on this thread, but I've just been reading through it so I thought I'd drop in my 10 cents.

Its the first time I've read about the budget 4wd idea and, I don't know how serious an idea it is at this stage (and, realistically, what sort of cost you'd be looking at to prepare a classic Scoob or Evo for competition) but I could see it having the potential to be massive.
I'm not knocking the Swift or those launching the series: its a fresh idea being put into rallycross and for that reason alone I wish it the best of luck. The problem is, the Swift isn't exactly, er, a sought after car is it? Both the Scoob and Evo have a massive cult following already though and there is a plentiful supply of cars for competition out there. Even if you consider advertising the equivalent series to the average person on the street what do you think is going to gain more interest? Watching a field of shopping trolleys or a field of cars known for their rally pedigree?

I know for a fact that a significant number of Scoob and Evo owners run second cars (i.e. second Scoob's and Evo's, usually classics) for use in drag, circuit racing, sprint challenges etc. and, with the budget they use to do this, such funding would cover the cost of running the car in an budget 4wd series (assuming it was kept sensible of course...). If a budget 4wd rallycross series were to be launched, it would be tapping into a well established car cult which (I think) would help bring in immediate driver and spectator interest.

[MESHGA]

Just a thought now this is something like the old "Group N" 4X4 which i can remember way back when !! If i remember was only a very few cars in the uk ever built! due to being to costly! If it was made to be "not so serious" yes would be a very exciting and close class!
But when it comes to new class's the BMW s are a good case study!
Very cheap to build and run but few take up! why???
Next year could be better but its hard to get a class off the ground and Orgs have to stick with it long enough to make a good job!
Pro Car 2000 is a very good example !
The main problem is Stock Hatch took off in the most extreme way and i think orgs think it can happen again!!
How about this for a out and out idea!! make things cheap as in a "starter" class for Adults where £1000-1500 gets you a race winner ,low entry ,made to feel welcome! 50 cars in a class is better than 5! and even if you charged 25% over cost the revenue raised would be better and help the whole meeting/championship go forward!

[keentowatch]

I think the BMW's will come good in the open next year there seems to be quite a few been built and word has it £3500 would build you a winner

[MESHGA]

Originally Posted by keentowatch

I think the BMW's will come good in the open next year there seems to be quite a few been built and word has it £3500 would build you a winner

Well im not surprised as I know Pat Flynn well and he would only stick his kneck out if he believed it would happen! that goes for Peter S too!

What you need if your an Org is the luxury of having to turn entries away due to having too many! Not everybodys got loads of dosh to waste on racing and exotic machinery when a good old banger painted nice would do! and give the crowd good entertainment (which is very important ) which i think may of been forgotten somewhere along the line recently !
Mr Cs idea of SPC was the best way ! If you dont know what SPC was ask me.

[dcdesign]

The thing i don't quite understand, is that most entry-level rallycross classes in britain are one-make or strictly regulated... after all, this does raise the cost level... par example stockhatch: you need to find parts which are homologated, but rare to find (so expensive to buy), to make a difference with the other drivers, rather then finding some cheap horses somewhere... or for exemple the one-make series: if i want to have a try at rallycross, i rather find a old wreck, make it clean, weld in a cage and find a good engine... rather then spending 3000-10000£ on a 1000cc mini, or 14000-18000 on a 1600cc stock swift...

[Hickey]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt the ROC (then the Super Series) try and FAIL to introduce a budget Grp N Scooby/Evo class a few years ago? Why would it be successful now?

The Swift on Monday was def under-performing and needs lots of work to make it appealable (including reducing the cost) but maybe we should wait til the entry list next year confirms low entries.

I personally think we have enough classes at the moment, especially with the BTRDA classes. Another class will just have even thinner grids and we will end up with 10+ classes and not enough entries to get two heats per class (like the ROC, and unfortunately, like several of the classes on Monday) - all this does is make the finals less spectacular as it is just a longer heat.

If the organisers are going to put some investment into the sport (which is very much welcome and appreciated) I think it would be better spent subsiding newcomers or lowering entry fees. If that Swift was 30% faster, it would not have looked out of place in the BTRDA mods, then if the person who takes it on wants to develop it further, then they will have the scope to do so in the mods, but not in a single-make cup.

[keentowatch]

Originally Posted by MESHGA

Well im not surprised as I know Pat Flynn well and he would only stick his kneck out if he believed it would happen! that goes for Peter S too!

What you need if your an Org is the luxury of having to turn entries away due to having too many! Not everybodys got loads of dosh to waste on racing and exotic machinery when a good old banger painted nice would do! and give the crowd good entertainment (which is very important ) which i think may of been forgotten somewhere along the line recently !
Mr Cs idea of SPC was the best way ! If you dont know what SPC was ask me.

I personally believe that there has not been enough promotion done on the BMWs by Mr F or Mr S to make this series succesful,the basic idea is great equal cars low budget controlled tyres but this class needs some 1 to take it forward..

[Rewsy]

Having been involved in the BMW ROC class to be fair Pat was very good end of '08 and early '09 getting this up and running and trying very hard to get the competitors there.

However, either the rally guys who would enter the calender for the ROC was to close to their rally or build didn't materilise. Take me for example I hired car for the first event and a number of issues for me during '09 has meant that I haven't being able to finish my own car for the various events, however at the first event I think we were all a bit disappointed that we didn't run on our own in our own class, I appreciate that there were only 4 cars but the handicap we got didn't work in terms of grid slot penalties and I think that has been the issue for the rest of the year having to run as a sub class rather than on our own, I understand from organiser slot only having 4 cars on the track at one time may not be interesting from specs perspective, but I think 4-5 BMW going sideways would keep them interested.

I think next year will see more interest, and hopefully we can run on our own as I think the ROC organiser want it to take off, and I think in the right hands (which mine are probably not!!) the BMW for 3-4k could surprise alot of more expensive machinery - you only have to look at the times in the last events compared to supermods and even supercars!

[RICKY_BOBBY]

i think were the evo class went wrong was- first of all using a car which was old, rare and never available to buy in this country anyway evo 3! and also i think being told who you have to buy the parts off to build the car, which is also going to hamper the suzukis in my opinion, as many people use their own contacts at work or in the motortrade etc to make competing possible (me). at clubman level if there is somebody at the top of the tree calling the shots when it comes to purchasing the parts it not going to work. £8.5 for a kit to build a 'standard car' which appears wont be as quick £1500 stock hatches is bonkers

i would absolutley love 4wd group 'n' (obviously no lights, passenger seat etc) using any car, built by any person, with parts bought from any supplier, as long as it met group n rules. i would jump into this class and reckon i could be outhere in a subaru or evo 4/5 for well under £8,5k in total

also confused by the fact the organisers want the cars built so they can still do rallying (is that lack of faith in there own plans?)

despite my lack of enthusiasm for this class i really hope it does take of

[Cujo]

Originally Posted by RICKY_BOBBY

i would absolutley love 4wd group 'n' (obviously no lights, passenger seat etc) using any car, built by any person, with parts bought from any supplier, as long as it met group n rules. i would jump into this class and reckon i could be outhere in a subaru or evo 4/5 for well under £8,5k in total

I think you are spot on, £8K ish should do a proper job – not sure on running cost though, that's the only area that I can see the Swift being cheap, apart from panels
A standard 4wd Rallycross class makes a lot of sense to me, I am sure it would attract strong interest from Rallying as well as Stock Hatch Rallycrossers looking for the next move without the expense of going super modified.

Policing would be an issue as the cars are so easily tuned and most Scoobs/Evos have been modified. Pucka Group N cars now seem to cost over £100K and have anti lag, dog boxes etc. Perhaps they would have to be over 10 years old or be classified as standard rather than Group N?

Getting away from the Swift subject a bit, so perhaps Mr Bert Mk2 can split this into a new thread?

[MESHGA]

The only way a cheap 4x4 class would work if everything and i mean everything was bog standard ! no Group N as said these parts car be so expensive to give a few 100ths of a second!
so how much can you buy a 10 year old scooby for?
then add say 2k on saftey thats it .

[Kevin McCann]

Originally Posted by MESHGA

The only way a cheap 4x4 class would work if everything and i mean everything was bog standard ! no Group N as said these parts car be so expensive to give a few 100ths of a second!
so how much can you buy a 10 year old scooby for?
then add say 2k on saftey thats it .

Sounds fine, but whats bog standard? All grey imports?, these vary from 240bhp up and beyond 300bhp!!! So u.k. spec cars only? Who would police such things? I think its a very good idea,but would take a lot of setting up and involve a huge amount of organising. That said we need new blood and good honest fun for the drivers, after all its our money!!!

[Cujo]

£2K gets you a 1999 Turbo 2000 with 100,000 on the clock,
these had 220 bhp as standard and a very forgiving chassis.

I suspect that a similar age Evo would murder one on track though

[Robert Morris]

cujo you thinking of doing something different then?

[leonidas]

I don't see why a stock 4x4 class would necessarily be much harder to police than something like stock hatch, particularly if you limit the models that can race (Stock hatch at one time had about 6 different models racing). You do all the usual things and use variable weight limits to bring the field together.

Also these cars are great fun to drive even if you aren't at the front of the field - I'm not sure you can always say that for stock 2wd, which is why many people complain that there is no affordable class to progress to. BMWs are fine and obviously the e30 has a rally pedigree but it is now very old and not as iconic for the current generation as evos and scoobies.

[Thundersports]

Originally Posted by Kevin McCann

Sounds fine, but whats bog standard? All grey imports?, these vary from 240bhp up and beyond 300bhp!!! So u.k. spec cars only? Who would police such things? I think its a very good idea,but would take a lot of setting up and involve a huge amount of organising. That said we need new blood and good honest fun for the drivers, after all its our money!!!

Well summed up Kevin. A budget 4x4 series would be totally impossible to police and would end in one or two cars blowing "in the spirit" of the rules cars away leading to peaple not competing. However in priciple it's a great idea but sadly due to grey imports, "performance" ehancing parts etc it is a scrutineers/eligabilty nigtmare.

I really do like the idea of the BMWs haven't seen them but the concept is spot on for the competitor on a budget who wants to have fun and bring a smile back to the face of the spectator. Maybe away round the lack of numbers would be to open the rules a little; allow the E36 cars in as some of them are now 18 years old and very cheap to purchase (E30s are becoming a bit rare) and why not have a class for 3 series 4 cylinder cars dirt cheap to buy?

[66motorsport]

I don't see the policing of the car's as too much of an issue. The hardest part would be to compile a database of "stock" Part numbers for the cars (ECU's, Injectors, etc. etc.) and adopt a 'If it ain't standard, it ain't bloody legal!' stance. Then it would be a case of sealing the engine's, Turbo's, Cam Cover/Carrier, ECU's etc, ensuring standard boost levels are maintained and making sure that pump fuel was used with regular policing.

I agree with the issues of Import's and model variant's could be problematic but with careful planning, I don't see it that hard to manage and weight limit's could be imposed for models offering better performance.

Also, I wrote that a 'Grp N' type car could be used but do agree that a standard class would be better and easier to manage.

I really do think that this sort of class would bring in fresh life to RallyCross, granted, I'm new to the game so people can quite rightly cast my opinion to one side, but as an 'outsider' looking in, it makes total sense to run this sort of class.

It's not unrealistic to presume that you could see 20+ cars for this class at a meeting, especially with the amount of specialist Jap/Performance Tuners out there (Not saying just use Jap Cars, but you know what i mean!!)

As an Idea to ensure that you know what car is what, would it not be an idea that the cars must show their V5 at every signing on/scrutineering to prove it is what it is (U.K Spec/Import etc) or to step even further, why not have the cars stay road legal (Obviously remove lights etc before racing, or covers etc) so that the owner really can enjoy the car, as for me, thats what it's about!! I've always built my own car's for racing and love to enjoy them as often as I can, having that sort of option to 'take the race car to the shops' seems brilliant to a car perv such as myself!!

Any takers, or am I all on my own??!!!

[tbtstt]

As Kevin has said there are a huge range of cars in the Subaru and Evo range (though the Scoob's do have a particularly long-winded back catalogue). Cujo is right in that a similar aged Evo would murder a stock UK spec Scooby, as the Scoob equivalent of an Evo is the "STi" range, and these were never officially sold in the UK until 2001 (discounting one or two special editions that is). Having said that, the Evo was never officially sold in the UK until quite recently, was it? (Hence why I guess a racing class based on older Evo's failed to take off).

Still, if you were to focus on imports rather than UK models, consider that you can now buy a decent imported (classic) STi for £3500 - £4000 and there are a lot of them around at the moment; so theres no reason why a specific model (or range of models), including imports, couldn't be marked as eligable for competition. It would take a bit of research but the Scooby owners clubs (and I'm sure the Evo owner clubs as well) contain a lot of folks knowledgeable in the various car models and their respective performance figures, so I'm sure you could put together a fair list of suitable cars that wouldn't restrict the buyer too much.

I think its enforcable though but, as has already been suggested, you'd need a list of standardised parts and perhaps the assistance of an independent specialist to oversee all the cars. If the initial setup requirement for a budget 4wd series were to be simplified in order to making launching the series easier, then I think the best bet would be to focus on pre-2000 UK cars only (which, sadly, would rule out Evo's).

[BertMk2]

What would the running costs be though? Although you're not using any performance parts how much are replacement panels? Rallycross being what it is you're going to need a steady supply of bumpers and panels - from what I've seen parts for Evos and Imprezas are big money. Also if something mechanical does break the cost of a replacement will be significant. The initial purchase cost may be low (relatively speaking) but I suspect the running costs would be significant.

[chunder]

Bit of a backward step going down the Group N route isnt it? as that is what a basic Evo/WRX class would be. THe Beemer thing is used in rallying all over Europe and though nice to hear the cars are vey old hat now, no different to 205's.

I honestly cant think of much standard that can capture the imagination, THe Swift idea is good however as it taps in to other series.

I think this was tried many years ago with few takers.

Models abroad centre on modified cars, they are more appealing to drive and build.

Supernational is huge in Scandinavia as they ahve allowed the use of many different types of class and car and engine, especially Norway where there are a bigger range of cars used than seemingly in any racing class anywhere!!

Yes it works as there is a relatively standardised engine setup, the conversion to rwd is applauded and encouraged and very rarely do frnt and rear drive compete together. PLus the rules ahve been fairly set in stone for years so are easy to get on with, and are similar across many countries soc ars can be sold in Norway, Sweden and Finland.

I cant see similar working here as the UK just does not want it, but even in Belgium the modifided classes seem to be far more diverse.

[keentowatch]

I really do like the idea of the BMWs haven't seen them but the concept is spot on for the competitor on a budget who wants to have fun and bring a smile back to the face of the spectator. Maybe away round the lack of numbers would be to open the rules a little; allow the E36 cars in as some of them are now 18 years old and very cheap to purchase (E30s are becoming a bit rare) and why not have a class for 3 series 4 cylinder cars dirt cheap to buy?[/QUOTE]

Do the regulations state these must be E30 325 cars to run in this class,like i said in a earlier post this class does not seem to have had any promotion what so ever, the only place i have ever seen anything ref this championship is on the 205 forum but there is no regs on there .....

[Barrie]

Why not just go with Euro classes Div 1A and Div 2, just a thought.