Should IMSA return to just GT's?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

In Europe, the ACO tries to link "Le Mans" with endurance racing. IMSA doesn't, with usual 2:45 races and sub-2h street races. SRO prefers sprint races, which allow banging and aggressiveness.

That has nothing to do with TV, you saying its more expensive to have their races on TV? If so, buy some servers and put it online. Speed has showed a healthy chunk of Le Mans, I think 6-8 hours online, streaming.

Most countries in Europe have faster, more affordable broadband internet, there is no excuse, they don't care clearly. That's why there's nobody in the stands and ALMS races are well attended, length has nothing to do with it.

Give the cameramen sandwiches they'll be good to go for 5-6 hours a 1K race is.

Please be a fan and demand better treatment, not lay down accept whatever they give you.

What's the point of having Intercontinental Cup without TV coverage? With their present track record, I guess they feel you should fly to China if you wanna see the race, that's a little much to ask don't you think?

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Why are you still on the toilet seat I smell something?

Did I say that they announced something?

Its not even a secret that Duncan Dayton wants to return to Le Mans in a LMP1 car and go for the overall win. He has links to Wirth because Brabs has links Nick Wirth. Wirth is designing a new LMP1 car, that's not a secret either. Are you saying you would opt for something over Honda Performance Development Power?

There hasn't been something this high quality (in limited quantities) to any competitor that HPD feels is worth it and can afford the lease. RML are extremely happy with HPD Power, email Mike Newton and ask him.

I think the days of Porsche AG pulling out all the stops is over ($$$) they rather build the car and let somebody of high quality run it, who's better than Penske right now? With ties to Porsche (going back to his Cam-Am days), having won them a manufacturers championship in LMP2, 2 years in a row, I don't see them plucking a GT team with no experience in prototypes.

Also Porsche has never said NO to LMP1, they just felt the diesel regulations wouldn't allow them to be competitive. Why spend the money?

Why you hostile??

I'm not being hostile, I guess I just don't have my head up my ass when it comes to expectations. Before I even begin to consider who and what for 2011 I'd like to see an announcement first, or you know, a clue.

Porsche is waiting for favorable hybrid prototype rules and just because Wirth wants to build an LMP 1, doesn't mean Honda wants to fund it.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I think the days of Porsche AG pulling out all the stops is over ($$$) they rather build the car and let somebody of high quality run it, who's better than Penske right now? With ties to Porsche (going back to his Cam-Am days), having won them a manufacturers championship in LMP2, 2 years in a row, I don't see them plucking a GT team with no experience in prototypes.

Also Porsche has never said NO to LMP1, they just felt the diesel regulations wouldn't allow them to be competitive. Why spend the money?

Why you hostile??

Why Penske?

Wanna bet it will be an european team, if not a full factory effort?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Its not even a secret that Duncan Dayton wants to return to Le Mans in a LMP1 car and go for the overall win. He has links to Wirth because Brabs has links Nick Wirth.

Huh?? Duncan has connections to Wirth because of the fact he owns and runs an ARX or 2!






L.P.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

That has nothing to do with TV, you saying its more expensive to have their races on TV? If so, buy some servers and put it online. Speed has showed a healthy chunk of Le Mans, I think 6-8 hours online, streaming.

Most countries in Europe have faster, more affordable broadband internet, there is no excuse, they don't care clearly. That's why there's nobody in the stands and ALMS races are well attended, length has nothing to do with it.

Give the cameramen sandwiches they'll be good to go for 5-6 hours a 1K race is.

Please be a fan and demand better treatment, not lay down accept whatever they give you.

What's the point of having Intercontinental Cup without TV coverage? With their present track record, I guess they feel you should fly to China if you wanna see the race, that's a little much to ask don't you think?

BINGO!

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Huh?? Duncan has connections to Wirth because of the fact he owns and runs an ARX or 2!

L.P.

Wel DUH...

@LeMans.pt

The last team with Prototype experience to win for Porsche is already occupied, can you name them?

So who is this European team with prototype experience that's won Le Mans in the last ten years? I gave one... they are busy.

The better ones are doing GP2/GP3 or F1

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Purist

The trouble with the driver situation is partially a matter of how many teams you could loose if you told the "slow" guys to get off the track.

There is a more fundamental problem though, and it plagues just about all sports and games now. It's this issue of, if you're "not good enough", you're "no good". We probably loose HUGE numbers of VERY talented drivers who do not necessarily excel in the lower formulas, but who would go on to make excellent top-tier racers, but we discourage them to the point that we loose them.

And this phenomenon is NOT limited to motorsport by any means. It happens all over, and is in no small part a contributor to rising obescity and the general sedentary lifestyle we see so much of now. This is exacerbated by the fact that boys in particular are pushed to NOT willingly accept the "one-down" position. Being told their not good enough, and/or being told they should move to a lower division, just gives many of them the push they need to say to hell with it, just to avoid the lowered status position.

This is probably also a problem with girls in sports, because the girls most likely to go out for sports to begin with are more competitive and "masculine", so avoiding the one-down position is more important to them than to the "average" woman.

I'll be back later to address the cars themselves.

I agree that good drivers fall through the cracks, one of them won today.

I said in a post located somewhere on the web, that F1 is crowded and honestly unless you just want to gain experience, I would never pick a back-marker team, I just wouldn't.

More single seat drivers are considering Sport Cars because its no longer thought as the retirement home for former F1 drivers. You can use it as a building block to F1 or a return back to F1. Alan McNish got a legit shot at F1 based on his Sports Car exploits.

I am wondering why Jonathan Summerton is kicking it and nobody has tapped him on the shoulder. I think it was great for J.R and Hunter-Rey to run Sebring. I think some of this single seat drivers are finally understanding that with 30-40-50 car fields there is ROOM for your talent.

I am so glad to see Elton Julian and Gunnar back in the series, I think some people forgot how quick these two can be.

[Birddog07]

I think the ALMS could survive greatly as a GT only series just like the FIA GT was for so long. GT2 with pro teams/drivers, GT3 with privateer teams/am drivers. GT2 over here is booming and companies have cars for privateers to buy if GT3 is adopted over here. Costs need controlled properly for privateer benefit, unlike what is happening in Europe, but manufactuers will benefit with the R&D coming directly from their works/pro team and/or their customer cars and privateers. For privateers, I don't think they should be considered as just the lower class either. Winning in the privateer/am class should come with its prestige, not just 'congrats on winning in the slow cars'.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Birddog07

I think the ALMS could survive greatly as a GT only series just like the FIA GT was for so long. GT2 with pro teams/drivers, GT3 with privateer teams/am drivers. GT2 over here is booming and companies have cars for privateers to buy if GT3 is adopted over here. Costs need controlled properly for privateer benefit, unlike what is happening in Europe, but manufactuers will benefit with the R&D coming directly from their works/pro team and/or their customer cars and privateers. For privateers, I don't think they should be considered as just the lower class either. Winning in the privateer/am class should come with its prestige, not just 'congrats on winning in the slow cars'.

But that's assuming all privateers are the "Sisters Of The Poor", some nickel and dime operation that should be running NASA Club Events with their overpriced toys.

Again this insistence on driving your own car, should be met with a challenge on the race track. I say putting in the 107% rule, if you can't get it in on time, you don't race. Soon you'll get the hint or they'll quit the series.

I see no point in spending over million dollars a year to finish 2nd, 3rd, whatever and its easy to point back at me as the reason why we don't win. I don't know how some people can actually sleep at night.

If you can sleep well at night, you have too much money.

It should be We Allow Gentlemen Drivers that can prove they belong... Not just grid fillers or people "happy to be here".

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

So your saying -

Sprint Races benefit factories and those with the deep pockets willing to battle them?

Endurance Racing (4 hours or longer) benefit the private teams more?

How?

Risi has done Petit and won with two drivers. Sebring and Le Mans, the standard is pretty much 3 drivers.

So your saying races longer than 5-6 hours benefit smaller teams? The only benefit is, if you make a mistake you have time to make it up. In a more sprint racing format, you make a mistake you pay for it in the point standings, you don't have time to make it up.

But I say a team that has a great car and makes no mistakes, you'll end up WAY ahead. In 2008 & 2009 I believe Risi was up by a lap or two after 10-12 hours, not because others made mistakes, they were just faster and made no mistakes.

Are you saying you're counting on what happen at Le Mans 2010 with Risi again? The laws of averages just caught up with them, they still won Sebring because BMW, Flying Lizard and Corvette made mistakes, all kinds of mistakes and had more than half the race to make them up and didn't....

As long as somebody out there is willing to invest in a quality team or quality drivers, they will be successful, I don't subscribe to the idea that factories take all the air out of the room. It only happens because series are afraid of loosing the investment (see Audi complaining about LMP2 cars) and instead of making Audi play ball or go home, they capitulated and LMP imploded in 2009.

Which I dare to say is the reason for this discussion...

I've always believed Le Mans style sportscar racing such stick to the tried and tested formula and that is endurance events.

Until the introduction of the LMS and ALMS many manufactuers and teams put together programs just for Le Mans. They didn't need to be racing week in, week out to justify the program they simply needed a Le Mans entry.

Audi have been at the top level of this sport for a decade now yet have ditched their previous strategy of racing in the LMS and ALMS in favour of select endurance events which is why the ILMC was introduced.

Manafactuers bring the fans and media, you can't artificially generate interest.

We all know how hopeless the LMS's media coverage is yet Spa was extensively reported thanks to the manufactuers while the Algarve race has come and gone with barely a mention.

For the ALMS I've always favoured three or four major endurance races and a couple of sprints such as Long Beach.

I've been told this isn't viable for a variety of reasons but I can't for the life of me understand what benefit the series gets from these mediocre sprints races. One race blends into another and come the end of the season the only races that will recieve significant media and fan interest will be Sebring and PLM likewise Spa and Silverstone in the LMS.

If I was funding a race team I'd be going to these standout events not wasting my time and money at places like the Algarve and Lime Rock.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JAG

If I was funding a race team I'd be going to these standout events not wasting my time and money at places like the Algarve and Lime Rock.

You know, I like being able to go to a round with lots of cars, and it's extremely close.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Again this insistence on driving your own car, should be met with a challenge on the race track. I say putting in the 107% rule, if you can't get it in on time, you don't race. Soon you'll get the hint or they'll quit the series.

What's the point of 107% in a class racing system? If you're 108% in an LMP you're still faster than the quickest GT2 most likely. Not to mention there's an issue of having enough cars to show up anyway, you want to make it worse?

Anyway, here's what you will have done if you apply it to this season and who would not qualify based on class polesitter:

Sebring: #12 Autocon (31 down to 30)
Long Beach: #52 PR1 Mathiasen (36 down to 35)
Laguna Seca: #44 Flying Lizard (35 down to 34)
Utah: #80 Car Amigo-AJR (34 down to 33)
Lime Rock: #37 Intersport, #36 Genoa, #99 Gunnar, #90 Rahal Letterman (30 down to 26)

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

What's the point of 107% in a class racing system? If you're 108% in an LMP you're still faster than the quickest GT2 most likely. Not to mention there's an issue of having enough cars to show up anyway, you want to make it worse?

Anyway, here's what you will have done if you apply it to this season and who would not qualify based on class polesitter:

Sebring: #12 Autocon (31 down to 30)
Long Beach: #52 PR1 Mathiasen (36 down to 35)
Laguna Seca: #44 Flying Lizard (35 down to 34)
Utah: #80 Car Amigo-AJR (34 down to 33)
Lime Rock: #37 Intersport, #36 Genoa, #99 Gunnar, #90 Rahal Letterman (30 down to 26)

Why count mechanical issues? The #99 and #36 had shifter issues. RLR's own fault was trying to play with the time limit and hope the track dried, they got caught out.

If the fields were large enough in every class you could have knock out qualifying. NASCAR is in a sitsuation where they pay well for starting and finishing last so its over-subscribed to a point.

I was mainly talking about the Top Class (LMP), where its suppose to be professional.

So based on that Autocon would have had to sit out Sebring where they were not a factor at all, ever. But you know that would mean some structural changes would have to take place. Lewis, Wilman et-al would have to bring in a real pro to add some speed and maybe they would have had to invest. According to Hugh Chamberlain who was handling the crew duties in Le Mans this year for them, said they were ill-prepared to make a serious assault and as I stated before, experienced transmission problems after the first couple of hours and was out of the race just in time for Hugh to hit the pub(s).

What's a team with a budget that small doing at Le Mans???

Furthermore -

It would clean up the tail-end of the field. As I said, is this The US Open or The Pebble Beach Pro-Am; where you laugh at the celebrities but come the final rounds, they aren't playing anymore.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

I've always believed Le Mans style sportscar racing such stick to the tried and tested formula and that is endurance events.

Until the introduction of the LMS and ALMS many manufactuers and teams put together programs just for Le Mans. They didn't need to be racing week in, week out to justify the program they simply needed a Le Mans entry.

Audi have been at the top level of this sport for a decade now yet have ditched their previous strategy of racing in the LMS and ALMS in favour of select endurance events which is why the ILMC was introduced.

Manafactuers bring the fans and media, you can't artificially generate interest.

We all know how hopeless the LMS's media coverage is yet Spa was extensively reported thanks to the manufactuers while the Algarve race has come and gone with barely a mention.

For the ALMS I've always favoured three or four major endurance races and a couple of sprints such as Long Beach.

I've been told this isn't viable for a variety of reasons but I can't for the life of me understand what benefit the series gets from these mediocre sprints races. One race blends into another and come the end of the season the only races that will recieve significant media and fan interest will be Sebring and PLM likewise Spa and Silverstone in the LMS.

If I was funding a race team I'd be going to these standout events not wasting my time and money at places like the Algarve and Lime Rock.

One race blends into the next because nobody talks about it. Where is it talked about, on the web in a few places and on Mid-Week Motorsports. In Europe you have Motorsport Weekend and Motorsport Mundial, Speed Report does its duty and reports on the race, but only after it spend 22 or so minutes on NASCAR. That's likely no different than what happens in Europe around F1 races, the BBC Post Race show is what an hour?

Why doesn't ALMS have a pre-race and post race show? There's no build up, no interviews with anybody really. RLM does most of this because they handle the PA as well, but Speed comes online 15 mins before the green flag and leaves about 5 mins at the end of coverage to interview a few people and then get out of there.

Judging by ratings, nobody is watching Indy Car on Versus but they have all kinda of Pre and Post race coverage.

Something is not right with the force here and I think its largely because ALMS is invisible.

LMS does such poor job of self promotion its scary, either they don't care or don't have any sort of media savvy.

Not you Jag, but a few of you are resigned to believe that the ALMS is destine to be the "almost forgotten" racing series. It doesn't have to be that way, you have too many media choices and technology has made it affordable so you can watch it, talk about it and promote it.

[6157]

Originally Posted by JAG

If I was funding a race team I'd be going to these standout events not wasting my time and money at places like the Algarve and Lime Rock.

And people wonder why sportscar fans are titled arrogant and self-entitled.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

And people wonder why sportscar fans are titled arrogant and self-entitled.

Care to expand on that a bit?

There has been whispers in the paddock about Lime Rock might past its by due date. Clearly this is the biggest race on the calendar (for them) every season (for the last 6 seasons anyway). But in defense of the track owners, IMSA split up the GT(O/U) classes from the GTP's (when the fields were about as big as the current ALMS paddock) and ran them on different days, instead of running them all together.

There aren't even enough pit stalls for 30+ cars...

LMS is guilty as charged for poor promotion. As I have said before, poor, even dreadful TV coverage is unacceptable. How can you be taken seriously without even an attempt at building momentum in a series without having it on TV? They can't be serious, their track record doesn't give one high hopes things will change. I think they let Eurosport dictate what's on and for how long. But making no effort in other forms of media is appalling. Radio Le Mans literary had to beg to offer streaming radio coverage of the races.

The ACO have no experience in running its own series and it SHOWS.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by 6157

And people wonder why sportscar fans are titled arrogant and self-entitled.

dj4monie: I was mainly talking about the Top Class (LMP), where its suppose to be professional.

When was that ever the case of "supposed to be"? Is there some rule out there I don't know about? There've been gentleman drivers in sportscar's top class since the sport was born.

And again, what's the purpose of 107% here? The sole reason for 107% is to not have cars on the track that are moving chicanes/death traps for other drivers and themselves. In sportscars which has most always been class racing having a 107% rule defeats the purpose of having multiple classes. Bryan Willman in the Autocon car is faster than all the GTC cars for example, so why are we going to get rid of that car while keeping all GTC cars which provide much larger detriment in terms of closing speed to your faster LMPs?

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

When was that ever the case of "supposed to be"? Is there some rule out there I don't know about? There've been gentleman drivers in sportscar's top class since the sport was born.

And again, what's the purpose of 107% here? The sole reason for 107% is to not have cars on the track that are moving chicanes/death traps for other drivers and themselves. In sportscars which has most always been class racing having a 107% rule defeats the purpose of having multiple classes. Bryan Willman in the Autocon car is faster than all the GTC cars for example, so why are we going to get rid of that car while keeping all GTC cars which provide much larger detriment in terms of closing speed to your faster LMPs?

All of motorsport began with gentleman drivers. Even F1 was liberally populated with gentleman drivers once. It has moved on, become a professional sport. Some gentleman drivers remain in nearly every series on the planet. (Tony George's stepson, John Menard's son, etc.) That isn't the issue. Having the money to promote yourself doesn't disqualify you from driving if you drive competitively.

But what about gentleman drivers who can't drive any better (worse, actually) than my brother-in-law who once-upon-a-time collected class trophies from Nord Stern at Brainerd International? Or Scuba Steve, who's been to Bondurant, and done some club instruction? They're fine fellows, but friendship aside, I wouldn't populate a series with them then expect fans to pay $60 bucks or more to see them drive. But that's exactly what's happening in the American Le Mans Series.

When does a series become club racing? How many poor drivers should it accept? When it has to accept a large number of drivers who are woefully inadequate just to keep the doors open, is that a problem?

[courageous]

IMSA going GT only, what are people suggesting for Sebring/PLM?

A. The season long top class plays 2nd fiddle to international cars (might work for a couple of years but then ALMS guys would get fed up of losing coverage in 'their big races')

B. These races are ALMS so no prototypes (divorcing from the international races)

C. These races are ILMC so no ALMS points (losing the 2 biggest US races from the calendar)

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I agree that good drivers fall through the cracks, one of them won today.

I said in a post located somewhere on the web, that F1 is crowded and honestly unless you just want to gain experience, I would never pick a back-marker team, I just wouldn't.

More single seat drivers are considering Sport Cars because its no longer thought as the retirement home for former F1 drivers. You can use it as a building block to F1 or a return back to F1. Alan McNish got a legit shot at F1 based on his Sports Car exploits.

I am wondering why Jonathan Summerton is kicking it and nobody has tapped him on the shoulder. I think it was great for J.R and Hunter-Rey to run Sebring. I think some of this single seat drivers are finally understanding that with 30-40-50 car fields there is ROOM for your talent.

I am so glad to see Elton Julian and Gunnar back in the series, I think some people forgot how quick these two can be.

Because he's holding on for that F1 dream for God knows what reason. He's desperate for an F1 drive, and I don't think he'll entertain any other option.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by courageous

IMSA going GT only, what are people suggesting for Sebring/PLM?

A. The season long top class plays 2nd fiddle to international cars (might work for a couple of years but then ALMS guys would get fed up of losing coverage in 'their big races')

B. These races are ALMS so no prototypes (divorcing from the international races)

C. These races are ILMC so no ALMS points (losing the 2 biggest US races from the calendar)

I don't see the problem in A. That's the case now, and has been the case since Audi and Penske split in 2008.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by TWK

But what about gentleman drivers who can't drive any better (worse, actually) than my brother-in-law who once-upon-a-time collected class trophies from Nord Stern at Brainerd International?

Well in that case, you have to look at how they got their license to drive in the series to start with. If it's a problem, then IMSA or SCCA licensing standards should be raised.

If they do that though, you're going to have to accept lower car counts then because you're drawing for a lower pool of drivers. It's not like these teams choose to have slow ride buyers in their cars, it's a last resort. I hate ride buyers on the principle of the matter because they take a seat from someone better than them and creates situations like Jeff Gordon trying to get into Indycar where you can be a great racecar driver but only if your daddy is a millionaire or you have the backing of the Argentine government, but you need something else for that team to do then that's less. And based on the grids this year those teams have done something anathema to you, they went to spec racing with LMPC and GTC.

If you want professionals (and when I say professionals, I mean pure privateers and Alex Job/Risi-style operations, because factories are usually professional but come and go as they always have throughout the history of the sport, so you need something beyond that which is sustainable long-term), they're going to run it as a business and it's a necessity to have the potential to turn a profit, which you wrote in your "Paying for Racing" series is exceptionally difficult for sportscar racing.

When does a series become club racing? How many poor drivers should it accept? When it has to accept a large number of drivers who are woefully inadequate just to keep the doors open, is that a problem?

You would know the answer to this question better than most, how many cars on the Lime Rock grid wouldn't be there if there was a minimal performance standard enacted that you consider fair? How many cars do you consider pro and how many do you consider "pretty amateur". And if it's not enough, maybe that speaks for itself on the realistic future of ALMS.

Even F1 was liberally populated with gentleman drivers once. It has moved on, become a professional sport.

Sakon Yamamoto-san.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by courageous

IMSA going GT only, what are people suggesting for Sebring/PLM?

A. The season long top class plays 2nd fiddle to international cars (might work for a couple of years but then ALMS guys would get fed up of losing coverage in 'their big races')

B. These races are ALMS so no prototypes (divorcing from the international races)

C. These races are ILMC so no ALMS points (losing the 2 biggest US races from the calendar)

Sebring and PLM are part of what is now the ALMS, and would become part of the IMSA GT series. (NO ALMS) No prototypes, full divorce from LM. If International GT cars wanted to race, they could.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Sebring and PLM are part of what is now the ALMS, and would become part of the IMSA GT series. (NO ALMS) No prototypes, full divorce from LM. If International GT cars wanted to race, they could.

Not necessarily. PLM would suretly not be allowed to retain its name without ACO involvement.

But then, that's all hypothetical as we don't know Don Panoz's stance on the issue.

I think friendly relationships and prototypes at Sebring and PLM could be maintained even if the regular races became GT-only affairs - even more so if the prototypes were to race in their own series combined with the LMPCs and the Lights cars as Mr. Farell suggests.

[HORNDAWG]

Yes this is all an exercise in the hypothetical!
So why is it that there is no connection to LM? We have more GT participants at Le Mans than Prototypes.





L.P.