End of the yellow and black

[Bob Pearson]

Stephen, I think you are being very kind to us taking that view, but the rules are clear for all to see. Firm action is required at C of C level.
This matter was brought up at the BARC Drivers Rep meeting and it was quite clear that there was an overwhelming demand for action against yellow flag infringers.

[Stephen Green]

I'm not saying there should be leniency Bob, but if the C of the C makes it clear at the drivers briefing that offenders will be punished and what he expects to see from them, it will make it harder for anyone to say they were unclear on the rules etc.

[EvilPumpkin]

I agree with Stephen - if you tell them at every single meeting that this is what is expected and these are the consequences if you disobey/infringe/ignore - and you back that up by enforcing it - it will have an effect.

[Woolley]

That gets my vote to, and tell the marshals the drivers have been told so we know what we're dealing with.

[mark ch]

If slowing for yellow flag doesn't work then more red flags are going to happen. May then the drivers will question the why so many races are red flagged... and realise if they obeyed the yellow, the red wouldn't be needed...

But yellow flagging does need to be more disciplined, and waved yellows only used when really needed. and more use of stationary yellows or going straight to hazard board.

I was taught there is no way of upgrading a heavily waved yellow so keep it for all hell breaks lose.

[mark ch]

I'll be controversal and say bad flagging should be punished too. It's not just the drivers who should be scutinised it's the marshals too.

[JimW]

Originally posted by mark ch
. . . or going straight to hazard board.

I don't think that is an acceptable option under the Blue Book rules. The logic is (I understand from discussions with MSA staff) that we use the yellow to warn drivers of something and then, when they have had a chance to see that, we can remove the yellow and restriction on racing but leave them with a warning that something is there which was not there when teh event atarted. That way (the thory is) they will not be able to have an accident and then sue people for there being no warning of an "obstruction".

Originally posted by mark ch
. . .
I was taught there is no way of upgrading a heavily waved yellow so keep it for all hell breaks lose.

Hear hear.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally posted by mark ch
I'll be controversal and say bad flagging should be punished too. It's not just the drivers who should be scutinised it's the marshals too.

In that case I could not afford to flag.

Jim

[Bob Pearson]

Have you ever listened to a drivers briefing, the content and delivery quality is in the minus figures.
I still can't see the problem with rigid enforcemnet of the existing rules, they are perfectly adequate if enforced. For some reason that escapes me we seem to have collected a breed of Clerks who fall for stories about throttles sticking and feeling it was safer to keep going rather than ease off. Crickey, I'd throw them out for suggesting I was stupid enough to swallow it, let alone the penalty for the flag infringement.

[EvilPumpkin]

Bob a lot of the problem is very simple. CoCs, like the rest of us, are generally volunteers (or if they are paid, are not paid enough to make a living).

No-one wants to have to go through hours and hours of court like appeals and proceedings - particularly in cases where it's a small club/racing class and there is politicking going on that means that certain people will always get away with anything, no matter what they do.

As for increased use of the red flag...do you know who gets the blame? The marshals. "they wouldn't do this/that/the other; the Observer/person running the post panicked - that didn't need a red flag; etc. etc. etc."

Believe me on this - I've seen it happen. Also you have to remember that there will be some drivers who will be quite happy to see a red flag if it means they get a restart. I've seen that happen too as I'm sure we all have.

I'm afraid that this all comes down to old fashioned respect. There was a time when drivers had respect for each other, for the organising clubs and for the marshals. Sadly, the amount of drivers that fit into that category seems to be gradually diminishing as they suffer time and time again at the hands of those who have no such respect and will do whatever it takes - up to and including killing other people on the circuit - to win.

[JimW]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
. . .
I'm afraid that this all comes down to old fashioned respect. There was a time when drivers had respect for each other, for the organising clubs and for the marshals. Sadly, the amount of drivers that fit into that category seems to be gradually diminishing as they suffer time and time again at the hands of those who have no such respect and will do whatever it takes - up to and including killing other people on the circuit - to win.

Perhaps I have been luckier than EP recently but this does not quite tally with my feelings. Sure there have been people who made me doubt their judgement but we all suffer them on the commute to work anyway.

Even those who have just made a mistake. I recently had a driver stand on my post after throwing his car at the scenery while a yellow flag was displayed. No damage to him or us but after allowing him the usual few minutes to calm down, I invited him to consider what he had just done and why we might have felt that a swift kicking was much deserved. (He had demonstrated a sense of humour, so more or less those words were used.)

He went quiet and just then we had to attend to a colleague who attacked the scenery and needed a hand getting out. I noticed the first driver watching attentively as 4/5 course marshals and the second observer (no IO) went out and dealt with things under yellow flags.

The driver then went round every marshal, apologised for his earlier behaviour and seemed genuinely shocked at what he had done.

Now I accept that he was foolish or unobservant. He probably ought to have been dealt with by the disciplinary process (I did report the incident) but I knew because of which club it was that he would not suffer any penalty.

However, he was very aware of his error and I was content that he now understood the position and had made decent amends. Sure its only one case but . . .

My point is that, in general, I still find drivers, on the comparatively rare occasions I meet them to be just as decent as they ever were.

I'm not even sure (pace JohnW) that driving standards have really got worse overall. Yes some series clearly have more money than sense/ability but I'm not sure that I could really say they are overall much worse than they were many years ago. (Yes I know about SEATs and the BTCC and I don't think they should be encouraged.) Perhaps it is the much higher grade of accident from which people can now walk away from that sometimes clouds judgement? (Particularly saloon cars.)

[/RAMBLE] (It is quiet at work. )

Regards

Jim

[73_Gstock]

This has been a most interesting thread.

As a relatively new marshall over in the states, I've learned a lot from the conversation.

The biggest glaring wrongs I've seen here was from a Pro Race at Mid-Ohio. The errors mainly fell back to the C of C, too.

There were cars that ran red flags at the end of sessions (with no penalty). Mixed instructions on different days about the use of double yellows, double waved yellows, automatic back up yellows, blue flags, and green after yellow.

It ended up that two cars were torn up pretty bad at the end of Day 1 due to flaggers being unsure what to do, perceived lack of penalties for driving "infractions", and maybe just careless driving. I won't be going back to work for that series again.

We don't have (didn't) the black/yellow. If there is no safety car available, the posts display double yellow and the leader acts as the safety car. I've seen it work well the only time I happened to be working when it was used. I was more than happy becuase I was out on course sweeping up a huge debris field from a couple of Mustangs.

[johnw]

Bob
I should have said suspension of race licence for two races as we have in our regs, not for the season. In my experience, the only thing that hurts the idiot drivers is to stop them racing. Putting them to the back of the grid reinforces their belief that the behaviour is acceptable. If the offence occurs during qualifying, I agree with banning them from the race. If it happens during a race, then suspend them from the next couple of races.
Whatever, delighted that we are agreed on the principle, as indeed we were at the BARC meeting, so let's hope from some action from them this year.
Absolutely agree that the vast majority of drivers briefings are a bad joke, so we have started doing our own.

Pumpkin
I don't really think that we need to listen to the same warning at each meeting as it would become wallpaper. I don't have a copy of the blue Book here, but I'm sure that for waved yellows it says something like slow down and be prepared to stop. That is not achieved by knocking a tenth of your previous time.

Stephen
The BB regs cover us all for the season, so no need for reminders. We just need firm and decisive action. It is true that some CoC's resist getting involved in disputes mainly due to wanting to leave the circuit at a reasonable time, but to me the cr*p stuff goes with the territory. If you want to do the job - do the job.

It is outrageous that Pumpkin's spinning under waved yellow driver was just spoken to. What the hell is going on? There is no point in having rules if they are not enforced, so please guys enforce them.

JimW
Believe me, driving standards have indeed become worse. In my view it is due to the unpunished nonsense that goes on in the higher echelons. Club racers see this and assume that the same tapping, weaving, blocking and crowding tactics (or as it used to be known, driving into one another)are appropriate.
It's obvious that contact is condoned for PR reasons, and the money is there to enable it to be repaired. But it is killing club racing. One reasonable shunt can double your annual cost at club level, so the more we can avoid this, the more close racing there will be.

Tons of snow here so I'm off to dodge the boarders!
John

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
Yeah think that's part of why I got into trouble. However, since no matter what I do (or don't do) I'm blamed for something, I've become very philosophical about things. After all, if you're going to get abuse no matter what you do, you may as well do what you want!

Are you sure you haven't read a draught of my autobiograhy???

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
I'm afraid that this all comes down to old fashioned respect. There was a time when drivers had respect for each other, for the organising clubs and for the marshals. Sadly, the amount of drivers that fit into that category seems to be gradually diminishing as they suffer time and time again at the hands of those who have no such respect and will do whatever it takes - up to and including killing other people on the circuit - to win.

EP is right, a small percentage of drivers don't get it or deliberately seem to roll the dice and flaunt the rules in the knowledge that in all likelihood they will get away with it.

I have seen many examples, usually when Marshals are distracted by an incident unfolding but one was where we were trying to clean the aftermath of a very heavy shunt with car close to track. Large clean up crew, recovery and various other odds and sods just off track and covered by yellows. I was standing a foot from the track waving the incoming down when a dope decides to do a practice start 20 yards before the incident. Big grin on his face at my gesticulating!

The thing that never seems to be taken into account by drivers is the fact that their cars are not always bulletproof and things like axles, wheels, disks etc can let go at the most inappropriate time (I should mention that sometimes there steeds can get away from them as well).

Soft skinned track marshals will come off second best under these circumstances.

[Sheila M]

Perhaps the drivers need more people like Don Truman to guide them and point out gently the error of their ways?

I've attended several drivers briefings given by Don over the years and I'll tell you, he scared me and I'm a pit marshal!

Perhaps Don himself as an Official D'Honeur could do something about the current trend?

[EvilPumpkin]

I think we may have got slightly away from the point of the thread here (mostly my fault - apologies).

The black and yellow flag was only ever as good as the drivers who were being signalled.

On the rare occasions I saw it used here, it never worked properly.

On the rare occasions I saw it used at Brands Hatch, it worked beautifully and I was extremely impressed.

Overall though, I would have more faith in the ability of a non-competing vehicle to control traffic, since their concentration is going to be on their job - not on their temporary job as traffic control which is going to quickly transform into the original job of driving like a bat out of hell to win a race. In some ways, I would say the B&Y is unfair on the lead driver. To do the job properly, he may be jeapardising his race chances (to all the female drivers, I'm just using "his" because it takes too long to type his/her! )

[wookiee]

I can claim the dubious honour of being the first flag marshal to wave a B/Y during a race. It was a Eurocars meeting at Lydden and I was at the startline, at the top of the stairs for anyone who knows the place. I seem to remember that we got the order to wave the flag and the first five or six cars passed us and started to slow, at which point the rest of the field continued at racing speed and they all fell off at the next corner (LOL). No-one was hurt but the cars got very bent. 'Perhaps a case of starting as you mena to go on...'

It just seems that drivers (and some Observers and Flaggies?) never learnt how to respond to/use the B/Y. Interesting that EP commented on its use at Brands and that it looked effective. There again, Brands claimed it as their idea to start with, so I guess that more emphasis was placed on B/Y at training days.

On another note, could you all collect the redundant flags and send them to me? I'd like to go into the deckcahir business!!

[John Watson]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that long circuit Kart racing were keeping the B/Y flag this year.

[Stephen Green]

I think this thread refers to mainly circuit racing John.

[Pete Howarth]

But long circuit kart races are incorporated into the program of car race meetings.

[Stephen Green]

I agree, but it's not the 'norm' is it Pete?

[Pete Howarth]

I agree not the 'norm' but they've been on few BRSCC meetings over the last few years at Cadwell

[Stephen Green]

Fair comment. Don't tend to see then so much darn sarf

[mark ch]

But the kart boys do tend to acknowledge flags well.
Useful to know they will be still using B/Y when their at Donny at the end of the season..