Black/ Yellow in the bin

[bacon sandwich]

I hope this hasn't been done yet - I did do a search but.......
The black/yellow flag is being ditched at the end of the year.
It has obviously been talked about in several threads but how do people really feel. It seems it is either loved or loathed.
Personally I think getting rid is a big mistake - I know there were some problems with it but I think it saved a lot of time and kept the racing flowing.
How do you feel ?

[greenbean]

i think it is a very good idea .because it can stop the need for a red flag

[Adam43]

All the times I'd been involved in a race that was black and yellowed, it has been a disaster. Always taking ages for the drivers to form a single pack. Either the leaders going too fast or the others not forming up behind them. This hinders clear-up because it can't start until the their are no cars passing the accident for long periods of time. This is the main problem it relies on the drivers too much!

Having said that in the last race I was in there were two black/yellow periods and both worked amazingly. As bacon sandwich will agree at Brands in the XJS race the two periods only lasted two laps each. Quick work by all concerned.

Maybe people are finally getting used to it and it would be a shame to abandon it just yet.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by greenbean
i think it is a very good idea .because it can stop the need for a red flag

I agree but it needs to be shown in BOTH directions at once (just like a red) to ensure that everyone sees it as soon as possible. Let's face it, the whole idea of the flag is (was!!) to "shut-down" racing on safety grounds. In effect it becomes a "Full Course Yellow" and, as such, should not wait until the Start/Finish Line.

What I can't understand is why this type of practice seems to work in other countries but we have been unable to make, IMHO, a very simple system work effectively in this country.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Maybe people are finally getting used to it and it would be a shame to abandon it just yet.

I think that this may have been the trouble all along. Not enough instruction/guidance in the use of the flag along with a lack of experience.

[Woolley]

100% agree. It's a full course yellow and should go both ways, and where possible signalled by lights/radio/landline. Get everything under control as quickly as possible and there's no problem. Jump 'em with it at the start line (when they may already have passed the incident at racing speed), expect the next couple of posts to find it and display it, and you're asking for problems at best, disaster at worst.

Don't bin it, use it properly would be my request.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by crazystu
In effect it becomes a "Full Course Yellow" and, as such, should not wait until the Start/Finish Line.

As I say the last time I was in a race I worked really well. And it seemed that all the posts got the flag out very quickly.

One of the incidents was caused by a car not far behind me. He went of at paddock (the main cause of black/yellow at Brands?). I knew about the black/yellow on the run to Graham Hill - all the posts were aware of what was going on and it didn't take long for us all to get bunched up after this. It was pretty much the ideal situation.

[greenbean]

when it has been used at brscc midland races it is called around to all posts by radio so that they are aware that the black & yellow has gone out .i agree with crazy stu it should go both ways . when i have worked at race meeting in america the full course yellow is called on the radio/land line and it works very well.if used properly you should only need a black & yellow for 1 or 2 laps at the most

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by greenbean
when i have worked at race meeting in america the full course yellow is called on the radio/land line and it works very well.

Don't start Woolley and myself (+ others!!) on about landlines!! Just when will someone realise that it is the only way to go????

We are now in the 21st Century! :confused:

[greenbean]

[i]Originally posted by crazystu

We are now in the 21st Century! :confused: [/B]

when has that ever made a differance

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by greenbean
when has that ever made a differance

Tut Tut !!! you've been to certain Hillclimbs, you've seen the power of the great unwashed. If it can happen there it can happen on circuits.

[greenbean]

i think the only why to save the black & yellow is for the MSA to make it an ofical flag inthe blue book and teach it proper use at racing schools

[Liam34]

It's in my blue book, and I had to identity it in the written test when I went for my license.

The question is, if everyone slows down by the same amount, why would the field bunch up? Would they not just maintain the gaps that already existed? Otherwise the cars at the back would have to be going quicker then the cars at the front?
OK, common sense gets the field to bunch up, but if drivers had common sense they wouldn't be racing cars now would they?

[Flying Muppet 2]

That was usually the problem with B & Y - the front runners would slow down a moderate amount and bunch up, but the back markers usually seemed to slow even more, instead of forming up in the queue as the regs detail.

[spearce]

For all you fans of the B/Y flag, I expect it will be used at FF Festival this w/e and will no doubt get flown any number of times. Lets see if peolple are getting the hang of it now, I expect it will be chaos as usual.

[JimW]

I think I would like to put forward a different point of view to some of the flag's supporters on this thread. Most of the failures of this flag were due to it being treated as a “full course yellow”. It never was this and attempts to make it happen like this are one of the root causes of its failure in some cases/races/venues. It is key to success that drivers don’t slow down (except, of course, as/if necessary under yellows for the incident) until they catch up with the end of the train of cars which have formed up behind the leader.

(It may be necessary to warn of the train by white flags if anyone feels that this is a danger.)

Full course yellows may be a useful trick to deploy but none of the above would be necessary if drivers would just simply obey the yellow flags. I’ve been on or close to trackside with just yellows out this season and don’t have a problem with this. I was able to judge distance, speed and driver’s behaviour and was content.

Correspondingly I have asked for b/y (or safety car) on a couple of occasions because I was not happy that we could work in sufficient safety.

For what its worth (and I hear you say ‘not much’ ) I think marshals are becoming much more aware of their safety than in the past. For my personal view, see the signature below.

Regards

Jim

[Bob Pearson]

You're dead right Jim, none of this would be necessary if yellows were adhered to. While drivers are allowed to get away with yellow infringements there will always be a need for some other way of protecting you. I have said it a million times, the solution is in the hands of the C of C.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
You're dead right Jim, none of this would be necessary if yellows were adhered to. While drivers are allowed to get away with yellow infringements there will always be a need for some other way of protecting you. I have said it a million times, the solution is in the hands of the C of C.

Bob, I agree with you but the solution is not just in the hands of the C of C. The clerks hands are tied by the standard of reports they receive from observers round the circuits. With ever decreasing numbers of experienced people the standard of reports is dropping. This is not a criticism of observers, more a way of saying that all marshals have to multitask and in doing so, something has to give.

Also, when given a written report the Clerk is obliged to show it to the drivers concerned and I can assure you that most drivers will have a very plausible reason why they did what they did to earn themselves a trip upstairs!

Perhaps if more drivers spent days marshalling we could encourage them to obey flag signals promptly. I am a great advocate of drivers of all classes (from raw novice to Michael Schumacher) spending at least one day a year as a marshal for this reason.

[Alan Crook]

It is possible for the Clerk or the Chief Observer to read the report when he collects it and ask the Observer to re-write it if he says the wording means he cant act on it.

Clerks of the course need to give feedback and educate people in what they require/need on a report

[johnw]

Delta25
Can you copy your last post to "Marshals good ideas" please.
We could mandate it in championship regs by awarding max class points for attendance. That way no-one could afford to miss it!
John

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by Alan Crook
It is possible for the Clerk or the Chief Observer to read the report when he collects it and ask the Observer to re-write it if he says the wording means he cant act on it.

Clerks of the course need to give feedback and educate people in what they require/need on a report

Hmm good question. What you have to remember is that any written report may be used in evidence and should be written clearly and concisely with no room for doubt. I don't think getting the observer to re-write his/her report would be a good idea - after all the report is a factual account of what the observer actually saw (or thought he/she saw). To have a Clerk read it and then suggest it was re-written may suggest something slightly irregular!

Perhaps we could get a Clerk of the Course to attend a training day to advise people on how a report should be written?

[mark ch]

Perhaps we could get a Clerk of the Course to attend a training day to advise people on how a report should be written?
They did at ther last training day at Thruxton (for all grades not just obs), including many of how not to fill them in.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by johnw
Delta25
Can you copy your last post to "Marshals good ideas" please.
We could mandate it in championship regs by awarding max class points for attendance. That way no-one could afford to miss it!
John

Excellent idea - Caterhams already do this and it works well for them - especially the chap who won the championship by marshalling!

[mark_l]

There was the embarrassing incident in a Specialist training session at Donington a few years back, where an OHP was produced about a written report recieved by the C of C, regarding a physical confrontation in the pitlane at a meeting between 2 drivers.

It was MINE!

Is this OHP still in existance?, I was asked if I had any objection to it being used in the future, which I did not

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by mark_l
There was the embarrassing incident in a Specialist training session at Donington a few years back, where an OHP was produced about a written report recieved by the C of C, regarding a physical confrontation in the pitlane at a meeting between 2 drivers.

It was MINE!

Is this OHP still in existance?, I was asked if I had any objection to it being used in the future, which I did not

Haven't seen it recently but the last specialist training session wasn't run by our usual trainer due to a misunderstanding. Therefore I ran the session and spent some time going over exactly how reports should be written.

I have been known to give a marshal a report back because it was badly written, not signed, dated, etc etc and ask them to re-write it. I have never told them what to put in the report though!