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22 Jul 2010, 19:25 (Ref:2730784) | #551 | ||
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I do not see GTC being opened up to All or most Marques from GT-3. I think we will see selective inclusion in the short term, while charting GTs short term future before any more are allowed in.
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22 Jul 2010, 19:35 (Ref:2730792) | #552 | |||
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It could be destroked and sleeved down to the 2.4L limit (3.5L currently) I'm sure that's why they want a bespoke or specialized engine to keep that familiar "shriek" most fans like. At least that's what they are hoping for. But is risking the health of the series worth that? I think fans were ready to give up the sound track, since so many were excited about the addition of new engine suppliers and 4 cylinder turbo engines. Done right it would sound no worst than the old turbo era F1 cars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-KtVqcuyN4 Last edited by dj4monie; 22 Jul 2010 at 19:41. |
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22 Jul 2010, 20:11 (Ref:2730810) | #553 | ||||
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As I said sell you're current car (legal for Patron GT3, SCCA World Challenge, Grand Am GT and Porsche Club Events) and buy one of the new GT3 cars for about what a new Cup car would run ($193K). This is assuming you buy a new car every 1-2 years. Keeping all your same kit (Pit Box, Transporter, etc) and just moving up to GT(2) would cost another $150,000US on top of what a GT3 cost. Plus if you use the FIA Driver Rating System, you can't have two Gold rated drivers in the car, you can only have any other combination with two Silver rated drivers much like Graf, Callaway, Chad Racing and Need For Speed have and you see what happens. You could keep the amateur/young professional/semi-retired professional dynamic currently in the European GT3 series and forget adding a separate Gentlemen's Championship in GT(2). Sounds like a win-win to me and I know your a competitor L.P and not one of the more affluent ones, so I understand your position but all the people in GTC and Patron GT3 come from small business or wealthy families its just not that expensive to them in the grand scheme of things. L.P. |
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22 Jul 2010, 20:33 (Ref:2730825) | #554 | ||
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22 Jul 2010, 21:28 (Ref:2730854) | #555 | ||
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Keeping the structure the same is stability.
Being Pragmatic is being selective about what changes you make. Do you really think there would be a collective groan from the paddock if after one year of GTC, we would move to GT3 cars instead of a Cup cars? Are you saying the majority of the teams running GTC are Porsche Fanatics? Besides GMG who's shop is across the street from Porsche Motorsport NA in Orange County California, (and has run 911's in WC previously and in Time Attack) 911 Werks and some other team with Porsche or 911 in its title, I think most would be happy to change if given the chance. Most people run Patron GT3 because its a semi-affordable way to go racing with a reliable, almost bullet-proof car. IMSA changed some things around to allow GT3 teams to go Endurance Racing (I'm sure there was just some polling of teams in the main series and GT3). One of Hindy's first questions about GTC was if other cars were allowed. Mr. Atherton said, let's go with Cup cars first and then we'll evaluate, but the intention is to make it a permanent fixture. I don't think he meant "permanently Porsche Cup cars". During the RML broadcast from this year's 2010 Le Mans race, Atherton was again questioned on if GT3 cars would be allowed in GTC. He said that it was likely and they would announce something soon. This is not being taken lightly and I'm sure there will be a vote, poll or some sort of meeting. The series needs to make bold moves and frankly I don't think moving to GT3's and leaving the Cup cars in the Patron Cup is that risky. It also avoids the Gentlemen's GT Championship which I think is a bad idea, all you have to do is look at the European reaction too it when Ratel announced basically the same thing. Last edited by dj4monie; 22 Jul 2010 at 21:34. |
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22 Jul 2010, 21:45 (Ref:2730863) | #556 | ||||
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And if more of those cars get thrown into the market, prices will deteriorate further. We just can't assume that every current GTC-owner would be able to sell their cars for that price. And then, a huge part of why GT3 has become so expensive over here is not outright buying price for these cars but the costs to keep them going. The Scuderia 430 has the same maintenance cycles and similar rebuilt costs as the GTC/E. The problem is, that GT3 is really not far behind GT2 in terms of costs and do they really need two GT2-classes? The number that's out there for a complete Grand Am season with a Cup-Porsche is somewhere around 1.5 million $ (and that includes the 24hours), and I think we can assume that GTC is somewhere in the same bal park, perhaps even a little cheaper (less races, less track time) whereas a full season GT2 campaign in ALMS costs about a million more. If I am correct and GT3 is closer to GT2 than to GTC, that's an additional million $ owners and drivers have to come up with... Quote:
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22 Jul 2010, 21:49 (Ref:2730868) | #557 | |||
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The GTC experiment is a 3yr deal,at least. The ACO have announced thier idea for GTE. The last thing needed at the moment, IMO, is bold, sweeping, reactionary, or any other major changes, where GT is concerned!!! As to LMP and LMPC/P-2, I think the ALMS is ahead of the curve with concern to the ACO. With several mfg now in the mix for producing the new ACO cost capped P-2 it looks as if we have gotten past all the nay saying on that subject as well! L.P. |
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22 Jul 2010, 22:03 (Ref:2730871) | #558 | |||
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Okay, this discussion is over. So much for intelligent debate. Formula 1 is a completely different scale from equipment numbers to budget numbers and it's not even logical to compare the two. |
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22 Jul 2010, 22:04 (Ref:2730873) | #559 | |||
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As is LMPC
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Of course they could simply run three prototype classes, but I don't think that's really the answer they are looking for. |
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22 Jul 2010, 22:04 (Ref:2730874) | #560 | |||
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What's reactionary in what I said? I said the professional teams reacted bad to what Ratel was going to do, which is what the ACO just did, force gentlemen drivers into GT cars. Again dumbing down GT to allow gentlemen not so fast to be semi-competitive. Are you saying you want Jean Todt to return to the wheel? |
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22 Jul 2010, 22:11 (Ref:2730880) | #561 | |||
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L.P. |
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22 Jul 2010, 22:15 (Ref:2730885) | #562 | |||
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As to the ACO forcing gentleman drivers into GTE, where the frack were they racing before? Oh, thats right, GT-2! GTE-Pro and Am is no different than a GT-1/GT-2 scenario. L.P. Last edited by HORNDAWG; 22 Jul 2010 at 22:19. Reason: grammer |
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23 Jul 2010, 20:41 (Ref:2731433) | #563 | |
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Autosport report there are plans to ditch factory teams from non ILMC counting LMS rounds.
Peter also wants teams to commit to a full season to avoid the Algarve situation. There appears to be wide ranging support for the former idea at least. |
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23 Jul 2010, 21:22 (Ref:2731460) | #564 | |||
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Not logical? Seems to me F1 is expensive for many more reasons than just being. Engine Operations in Cup is largely provided by a few outlets. NASCAR let's teams get away with having 30 different engines per team, does Robby Gordon have this? Why is that, when everybody else has proven they can run thousands of miles on a racing engine before it gets a rebuild? What happens is Ford, Dodge, Toyota and GM are constantly re-engineering a 50 year old design (and spending millions), looking for the tiny of the tiny advantage. So go the spoils of a purely "Spec Series". Just one of many issues in Sprint Cup, its ridiculously expensive and for sure not for building one car or fewer cars (which was the intention of the COT) is the cause of the constant escalation of cost. Roush/Yates' Doug Yates was on Wind Tunnel and expressed that they were doing F.I testing. He didn't say for which series in NASCAR, he just said they were deep into the testing phase. NASCAR could have made the move to F.I roughly 5-10 years ago. It could have stop dusting off a Ford engine design from the mid 60's, a GM design from the late 50's and asking Dodge and Toyota to spend millions of dollars to build engines they had long since abandoned or never made in the first place. And NASCAR was concerned about the Cubic Dollars (as witnessed by the Toyota F1 program) Toyota was willing to spend on NASCAR? (All about being the Japanese version of General Motors, see Peter De Lorenzo's Book) they should have voiced that much concern over Chrysler who was less likely to be able to afford it. So while you say the intelligences has left the room, I would argue that it hasn't that NASCAR has some serious problems, but as long as the sponsorship dollars keep rolling in, they put their heads in the sand (or arse). |
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23 Jul 2010, 21:22 (Ref:2731462) | #565 | ||
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If that's the case, it seems that the ACO is willing to sacrifice the LMS in favor of the ILMC.
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23 Jul 2010, 21:30 (Ref:2731471) | #566 | |||
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I would agree with the last point as well, OEM's shouldn't allowed to Cherry Pick. This is where the GRE can be embraced. Lola produces a solid car, with some strategy, solid drivers and luck can win races. As long as the power plant is reliable, powerful and affordable. This is not Judd, Zytek or AER going forward. Private teams should be allowed to run at that reduced weight as well (775kg vs 900kg). ACO/LMS can do more. Like putting it on TV or the Internet, instead of these 30 mins at the start and an hour at the finish. |
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23 Jul 2010, 21:32 (Ref:2731473) | #567 | |||
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Where are all these OEM's going to go? Formula One? |
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23 Jul 2010, 21:41 (Ref:2731480) | #568 | |||
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And please spare me the "Gentlemen Drivers and Teams" are the lifeblood of the sport. No it ain't they can always drive in Porsche Club, BMW Club and Viper Club events. There is also Patron GT3, Ferrari Challenge, Grand Am Cup, even World Challenge, even Grand Am if you must. The plan is to put one Pro (Gold) and one Bronze (limited experience/gentlemen) rated driver in cars one or two evolutions from the current offerings. This not GT1/GT2, the cars are just faster because they have a bit more aero, a bit more power and better drivers. GT2 became popular because GT1 became so expensive and nobody did anything until it was too late. |
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23 Jul 2010, 21:53 (Ref:2731488) | #569 | ||
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Well, I can see we will have to agree to disagree on many subjects!!
L.P. |
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23 Jul 2010, 22:11 (Ref:2731494) | #570 | |||
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I would also agree that GT3 is dangerously too close in cost GT2 in price. So it doesn't make sense that ACO bans Anti-Lock Brakes in GT2, yet its legal in GT3. GT3 got expensive because the cars grew wings, splitters and diffusers. Meaning time needed to be spent in the wind tunnel, something smaller tuner operations like Alpina have a hard time battling against. But as I said with GT3 you're largely getting a pre-engineered race car built off "body in white" pulled from the production line. This is something Porsche is masters at and I am not sure why it took so long for others to notice this. But what's preventing from having deja-vu, all over again? GT1 became the premiere class, GT2 became the "GT" class. (BPR, first FIA GT Championship) I forgot who was the B, but P was for Peter and R was for Ratel. They couldn't reel in the OEM's (specifically Benz) so it fell flat on its face. Ratel started over (like Noah) with GT2 and something below that, N-GT. GT2 then morphed into what was GT1 and N-GT morphed GT2 currently. ACO boots out GT1 because Ratel has started his own "World Championship", but succeeds in reducing cost. Why not increase the technology again in GT2 and add GT3 cars? I think I know why. It ain't about cost, its about EGO. Since GT3 wasn't an ACO creation, they don't like the idea. Since reducing cost in GT1 wasn't there idea either, they don't allow that. Poor Sports? ACO also didn't come up with the idea of a separate series under their control, that was some American's idea. The ACO can not be put into the same position that Tony George was put in because he held the biggest carrot (Indy 500), look what happen. |
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23 Jul 2010, 22:14 (Ref:2731495) | #571 | ||
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Like? we gave historically agreed on much more than we disagree. Are you saying your perfectly happy with a Pro Am series? I thought that was the Grand Am intention and that worked out well didn't?
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23 Jul 2010, 22:21 (Ref:2731497) | #572 | ||||
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BUT: you can delay it, and that's why I think it would be better to start two rungs below current GT3 (i.e. proper one make series cars), as this would give the class another five years or so to live before the inevitable occurs. And then, GTC must now be groomed into something that can replace GT2 when it's time for that one to die. And when it replaces GT2 it better be not just for two years or so, but for at least half a decade - which again speaks against using full blown GT3 as that one is headed for oblivion at about the same speed as GT2, only with a little delay of two or so years. |
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23 Jul 2010, 22:24 (Ref:2731500) | #573 | ||
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Just some food for thought: 1970s and first half of the 80s IMSA GT was pro-am as well... actually more like Pro-Am at the top and Am-Am down the order...
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23 Jul 2010, 22:31 (Ref:2731505) | #574 | |
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23 Jul 2010, 22:34 (Ref:2731506) | #575 | ||||
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L.P. |
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