End of the yellow and black

[Flagman]

But what state will the flags be in by then?

[JimW]

Originally posted by mark ch
. . .
Useful to know they will be still using B/Y when they are at Donny at the end of the season..

Are you sure about that? A conversation with John Symes suggested to me that the B/Y was now gone completely.

Regards

Jim

[Woolley]

I guess we'll only know for certain if they use it on the day.

Like the time the Safety Car came out for an FF race and they all crashed in surprise. Apparently the championship regs at the time didn't have any provision for a Safety Car.

Not that much has changed now they do!

[Peter Harding]

I believe the Kart guys objected to the removal of the B?Y and have had it reinstated just for them.

[goforit500]

I was in one race when the B/Y was used - I was in 2nd place at the time and the leader didn't slow or the guy in 3rd place so I ended up overtaken under the B/Y & no action was taken against the leader or the 3rd place chap - I did get back past him when the greens flew but lets just say I made a "robust" move to get back :-) - meanwhile the leader had put about 20 seconds on the rest of the field......In defence of the leader the flagging was a joke, there were B/Ys around half the circuit and the odd yellows elsewhere.....

Why-o-Why doesn't every circuit / club use a safety car - Surely the MSA can mandate such a rule at a stroke - Nice & simple......

[Alan Green]

Originally posted by goforit500
Why-o-Why doesn't every circuit / club use a safety car - Surely the MSA can mandate such a rule at a stroke - Nice & simple......

I have no idea, from my point of view as a flaggie (and observer more often than not), it works, it slows the field down, it gives us time to work trackside.

Providing the timekeepers are all the ball and can keep the charts ok so that the field can quickly be shuffled to the right order before restarting, what's the problem?

Al.

[Flagman]

Why-o-Why doesn't every circuit / club use a safety car - Surely the MSA can mandate such a rule at a stroke - Nice & simple......

And its use has produced some of the most spectacular shunts I have seen over the last two seasons - and this from formulae that have been using safety cars for several seasons...

[Bob Pearson]

I've said this many times on this forum, but I will say it again. I believe the only safe way of introducing a safety car is when pit to driver radio is used. None of us can miss a voice shouting in our ear, but we can all miss a flag when peering between wings and round engine covers and looking in mirrors just to keep the car out of trouble in normal forward motion.
I think the clearest way to look at this is to consider the number of heavy shunts that have taken place as a direct result of using a safety car and the B/Y and then consider this.
I can guarantee to you that no-one wants to leave the circuit strapped to a stretcher, we all intend going home that night. We all have lives outside motor racing that we want to continue with. Once those facts are taken on board, then equated to the shunts mentioned above the only conclusion can be that the system is flawed and dangerous.

[mark_l]

How about the organisors having a radio that can broadcast a voice message to all cars stating that the safety car is in use, and a radio in the safety car that the observer can use to tell the drivers to catch up/slow down/pass the safety car etc.

Its not rocket science

[Bob Pearson]

It's a good idea Mark, but nobody in club racing carries in car radios so a lot of changes would be needed.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by mark_l
How about the organisors having a radio that can broadcast a voice message to all cars stating that the safety car is in use, and a radio in the safety car that the observer can use to tell the drivers to catch up/slow down/pass the safety car etc.

Its not rocket science

This would only work in series where radio communication is allowed. The majority of series are not allowed any form of communication between pits/car other than pit boards. The whole section on safety cars in the Blue Book would have to be re-written if the MSA followed your idea.

[Alan Green]

How about adapting the F1 practice regarding safety cars that when the call is made for the safety car to be scrambled, the SC boards go out straight away with stationary yellows. The waved yellow flag should wait until the actual safety car is on track and in your sector, but having the boards going out might make the drivers aware that at some point very soon they are going to find the safety car in front of them, regardless of where they are on the track at the time. Until the drivers reach the train, the only waved yellow would then be at the incident scene.

I appreciate that this is a variation of the 'full course yellow', but it would address the issue of cars coming round the last corner to find a safety car in the middle of the track and having to throw out the anchor (as mentioned by Flagman). The only thing that it would mean is that there is some way to contact all flag points simultaneously, which at some circuits may be a problem (I'm thinking of Rockingham with the DACT (?) radios).

Finally, the start position of the safety car was something we talked about at flag training in cadwell at the weekend. Some circuits may need to rethink where they're 'launched' from IF they are to be used more from this year.

Al.

[Bob Pearson]

I think the only alternative to red flags in non radio contact formulas lies in some type of full course yellow system. Maybe the yellow laps shouldn't count towards race distance and it would be our responsibility to ensure that we have enough fuel.

[Flagman]

You mean something along the lines of the Black & Yellow!

[Alan Green]

Pretty much the point exactly, if the black and yellow was understood by all involved it worked, but too many people (drivers and marshals) got it wrong, caused confusion, so it was dropped.

We all understand the yellow flag (even if it does get ignored on a frighteningly frequent scale), so it would work.

Al.

[Flagman]

The problem with using the yellow flag as a 'full course yellow' is how you distinguish between a local yellow and a full course yellow, and prevent a local yellow accidentally turning into a full course yellow.

[Alan Green]

If I think it through, the sequence would be...

Incident - Waved yellow at it, stationary yellow preceeding it, green following it.

Race control make the call for safety car, at that point all SC boards are displayed. The green flag is withdrawn after the incident to show that the track isn't now clear to resume racing.

The safety car joins the circuit (in front of the leader if possible, in a gap if not), and the waved yellow is shown from the start/finish line.

As the safety car enters your sector go waved yellow. Once the car & train (if formed) is in the next sector, downgrade to stationary yellow, except at the incident.

Clearing the safety car is as current, with either a green flag at all posts or just the startline, depending on regulations.

Al.

[Alan Green]

Another problem I've thought of would be overtaking. The SC board would have to be treated as a yellow flag, even if there was no flag displayed, otherwise you end up with the potentially more serious risk of drivers 'racing back to the line' to be ahead by the time they see the start/finish yellow flag.

[JimW]

I'm afraid I don't understand what all this talk of "full course yellows" is about. To quote (me) from another thread:

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------
A bunch of idiots will behave as such, and a disciplined group of racing drivers will be fine.
---------------------------------------------------------

And there is not much more to be said. All this talk of yellows everywhere, waved yellows and double waved yellows (For ***'s sake ) is not sensible. If drivers just did just one half of what the blue book requires there would be little cause for any difficulty.

Get a grip and do as you are told.

OK Rant over.

Regards

Jim

[MikeM]

Urm, Al. If we're not careful the safety car/full course yellow becomes more complicated than the black/yellow. I have to say that when the black/yellow was used in my series, class B NWFF, it seemed to work well (with several compliments from the clerk, so not just righteous drivers) and I really feel better training/enforcement would have been better than scrapping.

[mark ch]

I think the best think solution would be to have all flag post issued with radios on a seperate channel to Obs/incident teams, so once a decision is made i.e red flag, safety car all posts can simultanously act. The issue with scanners and premature red flags etc when only discussed would also go away.

[Gnomex]

Having looked in on this thread with interest can I make a suggestion?

Using any of our existing flags for a purpose other than control of a local incident takes away their prime function. Surely what is needed is a system that is superimposed over the existing structure, leaving the flags for use in the immediate vicinity of an incident.

A suggestion would be the use of pairs of high intensity amber lights mounted on suitable sighting boards at each marshals post. These lights and boards would be similar to the very effective warning systems developed for traffic management on motorways and are usually seen mounted on the rear of trucks (together with a blue circular arrow). The type I mean are about a foot in diameter and pulse on and off, rather than the ordinary rotating beacons on recovery trucks. The lights would be centrally operated to control a race during a major incident, leaving the existing flags to control the immediate vicinity of the accident.

Obviously this would involve circuit owners in some expenditure so may not be warmly welcomed!

[Bob Pearson]

JimW, go back to my posting of yesterday, then tell me, am I right or wrong. All the **** about idiots doesn't come into the issue at all. It's the equivalent of telling airline pilots who have consistently mis-read guages that they need to buck their ideas up.
If there is a consistent problem then look at the system, to simply point at individuals is the easy temporary way out, not a solution.

[MikeM]

Bob, I'm not so sure. At club level where drivers pay themselves they tend to respect flags much more. Drivers do know what the basic flags mean so if it doesn't work - it's either the system (as you say) or people know that they can "get away with it" I think it's the latter.

[JimW]

Bob

I was not addressing the issue of how a safety car can or should be introduced onto the circuit. (And I'd like to continue to avoid that issue.)

I was interested in the issue of whether additional flags or boards (or lights, which technically seem a better idea) would address the only issue which concerns me directly. That is: When I am standing trackside can I be reasonably confident that all (well, almost all) drivers will behave in a way which makes me reasonably safe?

I don't believe that many drivers are reckless of either marshals' or their own safety. (And I mean "reckless" in the legal sense). But I am pretty sure that some do take risks (with their own safety) which could not be justified, because they are sure that they will get away with it.

However I know that some do not deliver sensible behaviour because I have had them spin past me at an incident or even hit the car we have been dealing with.

In some cases I might be willing to listen to an argument about flags being difficult to see but not in every case. And this does not even begin to cover cases where one might think that drivers were failing to slow down to any sufficient degree (because I recognise that 9/10th might deliver a sensible margin to a competent driver but might still look b*****y fast to me at track side. )

My point was that obeying a yellow flag is all I want or need. If you are saying that this cannot be expected, then I agree that something else is needed. I suspect that it will be red flags or safety cars which spoil the fun.

Regards

Jim