Indy 500 - an irrelevance?

[JohnSSC]

IC, paul-collins, thank you for the good words.

luke, if you wish to debate the types of drivers who are "stars" that is one thing, but bear in mind that this is The 500, not an all-star game. I go the F1 forum a great deal and often read about how it was when Drver X, Y or Z was driving and how much "better" thigs were. Relatively speaking things were "better" for the writer as they like that driver or era. A careful reading of the entry lists for say Monaco or Spa in F1 over the years or LeMans or The 500 will show a lot of drivers who are only there because they were wealthy, connected or just plain lucky. They will also show a number of drivers who are extremely talented.

Take Kevin Cogan for example. Wicked quick, fell off the track or bumped into things a lot but on his day: good Lord! Danny Ongais, Sneva, Donohue either M. Andretti, pick an Unser, AJ Foyt, Graham Hill, Jim Clark - they all raced at Indy going back through the 60's. During that time and notably diring the "glory" years of CART you had Howdy Holmes, Pat Bedard and any number of field fillers.

My point? All venues wax and wane in the level of competiton and star power if you will. I remember a time in the 70's where the 24 hour race at Daytona was in jeopardy and the 12 Hours of Sebring almost went away due to lack of interest. LeMans had problems a number of times due primarily with difficulties engendered by the sanctioning bodies. Just as it would have been rather silly to write those venues off then, writing off The 500 now simply because in your humble opinion the field does not meet the standard of a particular year is just not sensible.

Face it. The field at The 500 may be suffering, but it is like blaming a gunshot wound victim for getting in the way of the bullet. Indy is suffering as is open-wheel racing in North America in general because of the split. We are way past the time when apportioning blame makes any sense. The patient (American open-wheel) is bleeding out and it needs to be stopped. That, though is a discussion for another thread!

The point here is that it is May. May means Indy. The 500. Pulling Jim Nabors out of the freezer, thawing him a bit and having him sing "Back home again, in Indiana." It means me setting the vcr if I have to and watching the race later if I have to. Why? Whether these drivers are lesser lights is not nearly as important as these drivers and owners and mechanics and fans still having the PASSION. Heck, I remember being at an autocross or race and tuning my car radio to hear it (in the days before VCRS/DVD players - God help us we listened on the Radio!). My heart beats a little faster, my BP goes up a bit and the adrenaline starts swirling around when I watch those warmup laps. Then when the Green Flag drops just for a second I wish it were me somewhere in the field, racing at a place that truly has been built on the shoulders of Giants.

[Tim Northcutt]

From someone who is in the stands when Jim Nabors sings, the fly-over takes place during the National Anthem, when the field comes through Turn 3 to get into those rows of three before taking the green flag, and then to hear Tom Carnegie say "and the Green Flag is Out" when the race starts, te entire place is on its feet yelling and excited...

If you have never been in a venue with 300,000 people yelling, you have no idea of what excitement really is....the atmosphere is absolutely electric...

and the final 20 laps of last year's race???

You couldn't hear the cars over the crowd cheering the drivers onward....and "no one" (and I mean NO ONE) was sitting....

Go to the Indy 500 just once in your lifetime...even if you hate oval racing...or even if you just hate Tony George...go just onece in your lifetime

Sportswriters list it as one of the "Top Five Sporting Events in the World" (any sport) to attend...others on the list are the Super Bowl, the World Series, the Masters Golf Tourney and the Olympics.

it is unlike any other race in the world...period!

[ss_collins]

y'all well most of you seem to be missing my point, I think the 500 has lost its relevance due to having to adhere to restrictive IRL regs, meaning that only really Dallara have a shout of winning. Le Mans is not a round of any championship and makes up its own rules.

there is more mechanical and technical variance in the Daytona 500 than in the Indy version - thats not right surely?

heres the thing I like the IRL, its entertaining, and I like the glamour of the 500. Anyone who has seen the Paul Newman film winning will agree that practice and qualifying are fascinating well at least they were. Why doesn't the 500 open up its rules to let in a range of machines, anything goes as long as its within the capacity and weight limits as well as of course be up to the safety requirements that means a lot more people could attempt to qualify, remember Indy qualifiying is about the car not the driver.

with a bit of rule liberating you could see specials built up from chassis from

IRL
Champ Car
F1
F3000
FNippon
GP2
A1GP
F3 (possibly)

wouldnt that make more sense.

My favourite Indy 500 entry? the Duke Naylon driven Don Lee special of 1947 - in reality a pre war Mercedes Benz grand prix car

[luke]

To be fair though Tim, in the last 20 laps wern't the fans going nuts because Danica was threatning Wheldon and they actually thought she could win.
There are great atmospheres at other places you know Tim, not just at your belovid flat out speedway.
Go to most Grand Prix in Europe ie the British, Italian, Spanish, German and then Australian and Japanese GPs and you'll get the picture...there are other electric, awesome, fantastic atmospheres but I won't try selling it to other people....

[ss_collins]

Super Bowl, the World Series, the Masters Golf Tourney and the Olympics.

Lack of the World Cup suggests that they were sports writers in the USA, Wimbledon, Monaco, the World Cup, the tour de France and the Olympics I would suggest as being more realistic

[L-B]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Super Bowl, the World Series, the Masters Golf Tourney and the Olympics.

Lack of the World Cup suggests that they were sports writers in the USA, Wimbledon, Monaco, the World Cup, the tour de France and the Olympics I would suggest as being more realistic

Neither are realistic any list of the top five events to attend that doesn't include both the World Cup final and the Superbowl is unrealistic.

Indy does have three times the amount of fans attending than any GP. well except the US GP. I love that Ensign put the USGP ahead of the 500 that just shows how sadly wrong his posts are. oh and Ensign for every Larry Foyt you throw at me I'll raise you a Dennis Vitolo. As for the guy that said Nextel Cup is better covered than IRL in Europe? ummm nope..

Anyway back to subject is Indy an irrelevence well no its not. Is it the greatest open wheel race in the world, umm nope its not, It never was. Is it the greatest in the US? well yes it is still, name another?

The field is worse than 1995, mind you most Indy fields would be even going backwards. It is better than 1996 thats a given, in fact its a lot better than when Montoya won even including him.

As for GP racers coming over to compete it hasn't happened with a non american since the sixties when there were 10 World championship GP a year and the likes of Clark and Hill could turn up in the British Touring Car Championships on their weeks off. That just does not happen anymore. In fact when was the last time you saw an active F1 driver compete in anything bar F1 during the season? Brundle at Le Mans as a guess back in the early 90's. Just doesn't happen.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by L-B

I love that Ensign put the USGP ahead of the 500 that just shows how sadly wrong his posts are.

On a global scale. No-one without an interest in motorsport has heard of Dan Wheldon. Everyone has heard of Michael Schumacher. And although no-one can distinguish the USGP from the other WC rounds the overall effect is that it assumes more importance as being part of the WC than the 500 does as being a stand-alone event.

Originally Posted by L-B

oh and Ensign for every Larry Foyt you throw at me I'll raise you a Dennis Vitolo.

There have always been spear-carriers in the Indy 500 field. The Bedards and Fergusons and so on. But at least they had to qualify ahead of some other drivers to get there. That has hardly been the case over the past 3-4 years, only a Luyendyklet has DNQd. You have AJIV who cannot even qualify in Busch GN.

Given the stated aim of TG was to get some assistance for the US open wheelers, it was frankly a disgrace that Larry Foyt had a drive when someone like Jac Haudenschild, surely the poster-child for the old-fashioned US racer who has not gone to NASCAR, was not even being considered.

[JohnSSC]

No offense, but name a series and any number of people can name 4 or five drivers who are better than some already in it. Racing has forever been about "breaks." Personally, I would love to see Anthony Davidson in a good race seat in F1. Will I? I don't know. You could say the same for IRL, CC, ALMS, F1, GP2, etc - even NASCAR. Heck, I think Blackie Watt would have been terrific in USAC if he had gotten a chance. He didn't though. Darn shame, too.

paul-collins, the scenario you described ("run what you brung") is the way things were at Indy for a long time - I have no problem whatsoever with returning to those rules!

[luke]

Davidson will have a seat next year.

[luke]

John, ensign is right about the global scale thing. Everyone apart from some people in America, mainly non motorsport or NASCAR fans will not know about F1 or Michael Schumacher. The rest of the world does, and obviously it's big pretty much in every country in the world. Michael Schumacher and most of the top past and current top drivers are house hold names.
When you mention the word Indy 500 here, people know what your talking about, because of what Mansell did, however 99% of normal people, non racing fans wouldn't know who the hell Dan Wheldon is...That's why he put the U.S. gp ahead of Indy.

[BootsOntheSide]

What was the difference in qualifying speed between 1st and 33rd last year? In any case, I think a comparison of how many cars are within say 2mph of the pole would give a much better guage of competitiveness - and this year's race has at least 10 possible winners. 1996 wasn't as big a race, an event, as 1995, and although Brayton's crash is part of the reason, there's no doubt that the split hurt it. But the current field is pretty close to 1995 levels as far as oval racing is concerned.

It's a shame that more US dirt-track guys aren't getting a chance, and the likely cause is that the cars are more similar ot F1 than to roadsters, meaning that there's less disadvantage to not having raced in ovals before. Ultimately though, US sponsors are throwing their money at NASCAR, and that predates the main concentration of overseas drivers. I guess the US provides about 5% of the world's professional racing drivers, so it is inevitable that some will come over from other countries and succeed.

Running any type of car does not fit with helping more teams make the grid, because of the likely cost of keeping up with the most competitive car. Rising costs (and an economic recession) almost halved the F1 entry between 1989 and 1998.

I doubt the final of Wimbledon would come anywhere close to 300,000 fans attending even if that were possible. For international interest, my top 5 would be the soccer World Cup Final, the Olympics, the Super Bowl, the Monaco Grand Prix and the rugby World Cup final (which gets bigger TV audiences than most people realise). In truth the average F1 TV viewing figures are higher than anythng except the Olympics and the World Cup final though, and there are more than 70 of those in between the big finals.

[Team Owner]

Indys irrelevance generally only takes place in the minds of a few internet posters in the grand scheme of things.

[ensign14]

It's not irrelevant, just less relevant.

Remember when TG complained that the CART team owners didn't want to spend the whole of May at the Speedway?

[indycool]

Agreed, team owner and mostly in May from those left out by their own volition.

Sure, ensign, I remember that....which means what? That the car owners didn't want to be bothered with sticking around Indy for three weeks to compete for a $10 million purse and the attention and exposure that goes with a 90-year-old tradition like the Indy 500 for their sponsors and the like?

They'd rather just toddle off to Portland for the weekend, jet in and jet out, and not be bothered by auto racing for more than three days?

Tell us what a wonderful 'tude and thinkin' THAT is.

[ensign14]

Terrible. I agree. I never understood the mentality, either, as surely being in one location close to base would save costs? But TG sold the IRL as being necessary to save the 500 and its traditions and he's done his damnedest to desecrate them.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by luke

So which race would you class better indycool and john? the 1995 Indy 500 or the 1996 Indy 500?
1995 all the stars and cars from the series. All the fans. Everything complete.
Or 1996, all the unkown didn't make it in CART, dirt racers, NASCAR headed drivers?

1995 qualifying speed difference from 1st to 33: 3mph difference.

1996 qualifying speed difference from 1st to 33: 11mph difference.

Surely the competitiveness had gone?



Where are the fans in qualifying?

Don't kid yourself guys that the legacy at Indy isn't as great as it once was.

...sponsorship by an unknown restaurant chain...can we deny things have changed?

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

As for the 400,000, that's a long-standing myth that used to be estimated and reported at random with no basis. 300,000 has been a pretty close to viable estimate through the years, because as they've added seats upto what they have now, the GA infield areas that used to be packed have diminished.

Link please.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

Indys irrelevance generally only takes place in the minds of a few internet posters in the grand scheme of things.

Not entirely, TO. A good measure of relevance would be international (or outsider) attention, and scalper activity. The interest *is* lower than it was, given that there's a drastically reduced secondary market for tickets...

Note, however, I certainly don't feel that Indy is irrelevant, or even less relevant - just that I do feel it's a bit diminished. (And I'm not a CART supporter in this, either - there are scenarios where the 500 could have been much more significantly devalued...)

luke, the Indy circuit is not in any way, shape or form a "flat out" oval.

John, it wasn't me who said "run what ya brung," it was Sam - who started this thread, and, perhaps unsurprisingly, is staff for Racecar Engineering (hence the interest in the technical side).

[luke]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

luke, the Indy circuit is not in any way, shape or form a "flat out" oval.

OK, a rectangled shape flat out oval.

[paul-collins]

Missing my point, luke - it's not flat out. It requires deft throttle work.

[Tim Northcutt]

FWIW....with the 3.0 L engines they have to shift to keep the revs up in the corners....

[BootsOntheSide]

Another thing that I hadn't spotted until now is the reference to Tony George not hiring Americans who aren't related to him for his team - they've got Townsend Bell for the 500.

[luke]

Wow lets knight him.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

Indys irrelevance generally only takes place in the minds of a few internet posters in the grand scheme of things.

Your buddy bobby rahal was just quoted in the columbus dispatch this weekend on saying indy isn't what it used to be and the interest is gone.

Opinions and emotions aside, the facts show attendance and tv ratings are not what they used to be, end of story.

Any event has it's cycles in popularity and right now indy is in the toilet. That's not to say it can't get better.

[indycool]

Luke, I can't link ANY of that because all of it was long before the Internet.

If you go to microfilm of the Indianapolis Star in the '60s, you'll find estimates of 400,000. They HAD to be B.S. because of seating capacity, although they had huge infields back then. It wasn't until the mid-'80s when IMS admitted in its factbook to 200,000 permanent seats. Gradually, through the years, much of the infield access for GAs has been diminished -- no more "Snake Pit," but grandstands there, four holes of the golf course being off limits along with the lake taking up a lot of space. The infield has diminished gradually while seating has gone up to around 270,000. That's another reason seating is more accessible than in the past -- there's more of 'em.

I remember Larry LoPatin, at the inaugural race at Michigan in 1968, announcing a crowd of 120,000 when only 23,996 seats were built. Michigan didn't reach 120,000 for any race for more than two decades.