Indy & F1

[Peter Mallett]

Michael.

An interesting question and as a first stab I’ll give you my understanding of the situation.

The World Driver’s Championship started in 1950 (at Silverstone). The qualifying races that year were The British, Monaco, Swiss, Belgian, French and Italian Grands Prix. The Indy 500 also took place and the points scorers in that race were included in the WDC. As you can see the WDC was actually the EDC (European Driver’s Championship) and therefore the inclusion of the Indy 500 gave it the “World” epithet.

The result of the Indy 500 in 1950 was:

1st Johnny Parsons (USA)
2nd Bill Holland (USA)
3rd Walt Faulker (USA)

This appears to continue, with no European/Formula one drivers or cars entering the Indy 500 until 1959 when the Indy 500 took place on 30 May and the first World Championship US Grand Prix occurred on 12 December!

The results of both races were:

Indy 500
Rodger Ward (USA)
Jim Rathmann (USA)
Johnny Thomson (USA)

US GP
Bruce McLaren (NZ)
Maurice Trintignant (Fr)
Tony Brooks (GB)

1960 appears to be the last time that the results of Indy 500 appeared as part of the WDC.

During its time in the WDC the regulations were never unified. So I would guess that it would have been impossible to run an “Indy” car in the Formula One WDC.

I hope others out there can provide more or better info.

[Michael M]

When F1 DWC started in 1950, the Indianapolis 500 belongs counted for it. Only dew - if any - drivers of this era contested in both - Indy and F1, so what was the reason? The technical regulations had been quite different, was it possible for an Indy driver to enter his car in other F1 races, and also the other way round? What was the last year the Indy 500 counted for the F1 DWC? To which other series did the Indy 500 count (e.g. CART), and in which years?

[Michael M]

Peter, exactly this is the point. The Indy 500 in 1959 and 1960 acc. to my files counted for the DWC, although in these years there was a real USA GP. So I doubted the correctness of this information.

[Gerard]

Michael, as Peter already said the Indianapolis 500 was included to make a real 'world' championship.

Yes, it was possible for an Indy driver to enter his car in other F1 races, and also the other way around?

In 1952 Alberto Ascari entered the Indy 500 in a Ferrari 375 V12 from 19th on the grid only to retire due to a spin in which he damaged the hub flange, whatever that is.

The other way around, in 1959 Rodger Ward entered the USA Grand prix in a Kurtis Kraft Midget Offenhauser sponsored by Leader Cards Incorporated. He started 19th on the grid but had to retire in lap 20 due to a broken clutch.

To my knowledge these were the only times a GP driver entered the Indy 500 and a Indy driver entered a GP during the years the Indy 500 counted towards the championship.

[Peter Mallett]

Well done Gerard. Now who's going to confirm the rest of the query?

[Hans.ca]

Peter Mallet
Slight correction to 1950 Indy 500 results. The race was called because of rain after a total of 345 miles had been completed.
Mauri Rose finished third. Walt Faulkner was seventh. He set new lap record in qualifying of 134.343 mph and started on pole.

Gerard
Alberto Ascari spun out on lap 40 in the northwest turn due to a broken wheel.
1959 Roger Ward at the USA GP in a Kurtis Kraft Midget offenhauser. I was there, the midget did not have a clutch. It was an in or out gearbox (no gears). To start the engine,the gear was engaged and then it was pushed by a truck. Once it was started it could not stand still, I believe we had a rolling start at that race. The weather was inclement, wet and cold. The crew cut grooves into the normal slicks so they could get some traction. I remember when he came in his hands where frozen and he could not straigthen them out for a long time. This is all from memorie and all this happened a long time agoe.

[This message has been edited by Hans.ca (edited 09 May 2000).]

[KC]

Using a crash box or in-and-out box on a midget was the norm for the day, but what set Rodger Wards car apart from other midgets was the use of a two-speed transmission. I believe that USGP was held at Sebring? I remember reading a driver bio in Road & Track a couple of years ago and a painting was done showing Ward leading Maurice Trintignant before the midget failed.

[Hans.ca]

If my memory is correct the race was held at Watkins Glen and it really was a Formula Libe event rather then an F1 race. However a full complement of F1 cars was there.

[Gerard]

Hans, KC is right, the race was held at Sebring on the 12th of December.
It was organised by the Automobile Racing Club of Florida and it was the first United States Grand Prix for Formula One cars.

[Hans.ca]

KC and Gerard
I must apologize, the race in 59 that was at Watkins Glen was defenitely a Formula Libe race and not a WDC race. That was later at Sebring on Dec. 12 or 13. I put it down to a seniors moment.

The Indy 500 was part of the WDC from 1950 to 1960 inclusive. In 59 there was another WDC GP at Sebring and in 1960 there was another WDC in Nov. at Riverside Calif.
From 1961 to 1980 inclusive there was a WDC GP at Watkins Glen, NY. Also from 1976 to 1983 inclusive they had a WDC GP at Long Beach Calif. 1981 and 1982 at Las Vegas, 1982 to 1986 incl. at Detroit, 1984 at Dalas. 1989, 90 and 91 at Phoenix.
The above info is out of the Marlboro Media Guide that is usually reliable.
I do see a problem, it appears as if there had been 3 WDC GP in USA in 1982. I'll have to check this further.
If anybody has more info on The Kurtis midget I would be interested as according to my info they did not have a clutch.

[Peter Mallett]

Just to take this a little further. I’ve just spent a VERY pleasant afternoon in the garden with a bottle of champagne and the book “Formula One the Cars and the Drivers” by Michael Turner and Nigel Roebuck. (Pictures and words in that order). They tell the story of Sebring 1959 and to quote “Rodger Ward’s USAC Midget dirt car – 44 seconds behind.” This is a reference to the starting grid.

Another story is that Harry Schell was elevated from the second row to the first because of a previously un-discovered time! The book says, “There has always been some doubt that Schell’s car covered the entire 8.4 kilometer (5.2 mile) circuit on its quickest lap…”

So a good book for a sunny Sunday and a bit more info for the topic.

Cheers

[Leo]

About 1959:
Ward's Kurtis Kraft was not an Indycar, but a dirt track racer. It was equiped with a 1.7 litre 4 cylinder Offenhauser engine.

Harry Schell most probably cut off a part of the track on his fastest lap, since it was some 6 seconds faster than his previous best time. Ferrari launched an appeal (because Tony Brooks lost his spot on the first row), but that was rejected because race control had not actually noticed Schell shortcutting a corner.

Apart from Ascari, also Guiseppe Farina tried his luck at the Indy. I am nost sure about the exact facts however. His trip to America was somewhere 1955, 56, 57 or so, and I'm not sure if he used a Ferrari or Maserati. One thing I do know, and that is that he failed to qualify.

It's funny that after the Indy 500 lost its Grand Prix status, the race drew more and more attention from the Formula 1 drivers and constructors, with Brabham, McLaren and Lotus going over there in the 60's, and with Clark and Graham Hill winning the race.

[Eagle104]

(without looking it up)...I thought the Formula Libre race was at Lime Rock.

[Don Capps]

I was just looking over some of the older threads when this one caught my eye.

The International 500 Mile Sweepstakes was a part of the CSI world Championship for Drivers from 1950 until 1960, as mentioned. However, contrary to what many believe, the events from 1950 until 1953 were run to the Formula 1 technical specifications but for a few twists by the AAA. However, for all intents and purposes these were really "F1" events since few were using anything other than the 4.5-litre Offy during those years. Incidentially, the AAA Contest Board did officially adopt the new CSI "International Formuala A" for 1947, but a lack of the smaller 1-5-litre supercharged engines caused delays and so forth for several years.

While the AAA Contest Board initially adopted the new 2.5-litre/750cc International Formula 1, it soon backed out of the commitment and continued with the modified formula for literally decades.

The II United States Grand Prix was held at Sebring in December 1959, with Rodger Ward and his Kurtis Kraft Midget 1.7-litre Offy, very possibly chassis '46/010.' The I united States GP was held for sports car at Riverside the year before.

There were several events where the Offy Midgets got their time on on road courses in 1959 -- Lime Rock where Ward won a USAC RRC round, Meadowdale and Watkins Glen as well, the latter being a Libre event as mentioned.

The establishment of a USGP allowed the CSI and the USAC to ease out of a situation that was getting a bit difficult for both, especially when the USAC Board stated that it would not even seriously entertain the new 1.5-litre formula coming in 1961.

Interestingly enough, the USAC Board approved the 3.0/1.5-litre formula for 1966 in 1964 and then backed out on a re-vote.....

[strad]

"""""Michael.

An interesting question and as a first stab I’ll give you my understanding of the situation."""

The question seems to be missing...what was it?

[paulzinho]

I think its in the second post, must've been a glitch way back then! At least its the only thing I can think of!

[D-Type]

There's been several mentions of Roger Ward's midget competing, rather unsuccessfully, at Sebring.
At Sebring, Ward met Jack Brabham with the result that they tested a F1 Cooper at Indianapolis the next year. The result led to Brabham's entry in 1961 and on to the lotus entries and the revolution that that induced.

[thebear]

Originally posted by Eagle104
(without looking it up)...I thought the Formula Libre race was at Lime Rock.

It was and I was a corner worker at the event with photos that I have scanned but can not get to insert. :confused: Mr.Ward's car was indeed a `dirt track' w/2 speed box and a push start. He won two of the three heats and set a lap record of 1:04 & a few decimals (1.5 mile course) that lasted for many years.

On the other part of the thread, Juan Manuel Fangio also practiced for one of the mid 50's Indy races but did not run. In addition, I was a corner worker at the F-1 Riverside race in 1960.