The cost of race entries 2011

[RTH]

You only have to look at the fallen grid numbers , cancelled and amalgamated races and dwindling crowd numbers to know that something has gone very wrong.
Claire in all your posts you do defend the status quo and keep telling us change is impossible... and your answer remains people should be forced to pay up whatever it costs.We all know about the charges, that is a the heart of the problem.
We all pay motor racing's governing body the MSA to look after and improve motor sport in Britain.These are the people with the power and the responsibility, to make changes , club secretaries have few options open to them ,other than cancel events that are uneconomic due to lack of participation and we have seen that this year.Even a complete Rallycross championship was cancelled for the year due to lack of entries.This is all set to get much more serious in the future.

My opinion is that they , the MSA have not reacted over the past 2 decades and have allowed the expansion of expenses to get way ahead of the ability of competitors to pay.They have not maintained the very necessary variety needed to attract an audience to meetings.
It is their responsibility to examine race meetings in fine detail and start with a clean sheet of paper in the light of modern technology to produce a lean operating procedure and revised statutory requirements . Maybe the days of clubs is over? maybe circuits should run meetings alone, to reduce costs? Paid staffing levels need to be slashed, more volunteer helpers, the whole question of insurance and a multitude of other issues need scrutiny and change .
If you just keep on telling people to pay up more (in all sorts of ways ) and more they will vote with their feet and you will not see them again. Televised motor sport is more popular than ever, participation is way beyond the reach of nearly all.
No change is not an option.

[PenelopePitstop]

Midgetman,

Do not forget I am a clerk and David double checks that I have done up the wheel nuts before he will get in the car......do you realy want me to Scrut your car and miss the one thing that could ruin your race/life?

[MartinSmith]

Richard

I do not defend the status quo at all, but you have in your post hit on some reasons as for the decline.

You state "paid staffing levels need to be slashed...more volunteers"

Sorry but you are missing the big point, a Clerk IS a volunteer, The Marshals are volunteers, Scrutineers get paid on a scale set by the MSA which takes into account such things as tools etc mileage to the event etc, and btw an International Clerk pays for his licence the same as a competitor, so who else are you going to get to volunteer and what qualifications do they have to officiate at a Race Meeting? Peoples weekends are precious and with the choice that is available today people can choose their time wisely ...Times have unfortunately changed and to get volunteeers now is hard enough so where are you getting these other volunteers from? I am a strong believer that the MSA should promote and encourage more people to take part in Motorsport, There are certain areas of their training that I believe could do with improvement and younger people need to be encouraged to get involved in motorsport. Some have taken it into their own hands and if you look at Castle Combe, they have a great acadamy for their Marshals etc...that is one way to address the situation, but, you are not going to get away from the fact that in order to get someone volunteering for something you have to invest time and effort into it and once again that takes money...training days etc

The reason for decline in gate is simple...people have other things to do nowadays. You have sat tv whereby if you want you can watch all manner of motorsport from the comfort of your armchair or..record it and go and do something else safe in the knowledge that when you get back, it will be there to watch...you could not do that 30 years ago and while the big meetings (BTCC, WTCC, F1 etc) still pull in crowds the smaller meetings are going to be attended by friends and family and the odd few. Unfortunately, its not our national sport so you are not going to get football crowds there anymore...unless the meeting itself is a biggy...that is just the fact of it.

Also, a lot has changed in the time with regards to safety, go back 30 odd years and tell me that you want the circuits to be as they were and dont look through rose tinited glasses at faded pictures and the likes, think of how they really were, were they as safe as they are today?...I think not, regulation and inovation has come a long way and if you look at what JP has done for MSV for example and also what Castle Combe have done, they have invested in them, spent money and continue to spend money, do you think they should do that for nothing? we live in a world where ROI is key and thats not just motorsport, thats everything and THAT is why your entry fees costs more, its that simple.

I can speak with confidence on the next bit because we have done it. We kinda did what you all want someone to do, We the 360 team, broke the mould as such, we created an event and run it at cost (no...we planned to run it at cost but actually in fact it was run at a massive personal loss) no one took ANY wage out of that meeting. we set up the club, got the permit etc etc you know this because you commented on it, but with the greatest respect, you had no idea of actually what it costs nowadays to run a race meeting and we didnt charge what it cost, because if we had, the race would have cost the cars 3.5k each, you think that a thousand pounds for a six hour race is too expensive and you even stated I should have done it at 500. Well as stated to you before, break the mould, go out there and produce a meeting that is SAFE and worthy for 500 per entry for that amount of track time....and I will sub contract it from you. If you can guarantee 47 cars you may, just may, only lose a little, but remember, if you dont get the 47, you still have to pay for the meeting anyway, unless you cancel it before hand and in which case...you still have to pay for the circuit (because that has now lost the other meeting that was going to be there....they have gone elsewhere) The reason people didnt attend our forst race had nothing to do with the entry fee at all if you speak to most who were going to attend. Their cars were already half way through a season, they had other championships and the car itself cost a lot to prepare for a six hour race, it wasnt the entry was too high...it was the rest of the expense as well. (also it was a fact that we didnt promote it as well as we could...but you see...we wanted to keep the cost down...and promotion costs)

Rates cost money, so does electricity so does all the other stuff that goes with a race circuit. When that track is not earning money, it still has to pay its water rates and its electricity bill and its phone line rental and its fuel bill...and fuel is now not a pound a gallon its about 1.20 a litre and there are 4.54 of them in a gal Track days have become popular because?..because there is not the government that goes with a real race meeting, I stated this earlier. it may be that we become a nation of track dayers....but remember, when you go to a track day, the circuit manager is being paid so are most of the staff there with the exception of once again the marshal and what do you get for your money? Race round a circuit with others who may not have had the training you have had to get your ARDS, someone who is new to their car and has no indication of that on their car, you pays your monies you takes your chances...oh and his insurance didnt cover him on track days btw


If you give me solutions to the problems I have stated then I will join the cause, as I have stated before I am all for change for the better....just tell me how you are going to better it at LESS COST. Im not a defender of the current situation, im a realist and Im telling you what you are up against thats all. As the doctor said to my mother when she was diagnosed witha terminal illness "prove me wrong" ...he meant it, he wanted her to, I want you to prove me wrong also.

[midgetman]

PP, the last time I had a wheel fall off was when David did up the wheel nuts, and that was only around the Crescent LOL.

I wouldn't mind, but the scrutes don't check the wheel nuts or anything like that, they simply check labels and dates, and you don't need an engineering background for that. I'm sure that for reason of 'elf'n'safety scrutes aren't allowed to check more or they'd have to check everything. Therefore what's the use of scrutineering at the event beyond eligibility? Therefore why do you need legions of highly-trained people when it's down to checking numbers and dates?

How about a once-a-year "MOT" for racing cars, then participants have to sign to say that their car complies with the safety requirements at every race meeting. Clerks (not C-of-the-Cs, I didn't mean them) can then check fire-ex, overalls etc, check fire-ex is armed as the car drives out the pits etc etc. One qualified scrute could be on hand to check over cars that have been involved in accidents. It's good enough for me to drive at 70mph (ahem) all day, every day on the motorway.

Just an example of how thinking out of the box can make changes.

BTW - I'm NOT having a go at scrutineers, just highlighting how the current world is moving away from old-fashioned beaureaucracy. We need to think much wider.

[RTH]

That is another page of nothing can be done.

[andy97]

Well, Richard, we have heard you suggest that something should be done, please feel free to get on a do something, then, instead of just telling others that they are not doing enough.

The ball's in your court, run with it.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by midgetman

PP, the last time I had a wheel fall off was when David did up the wheel nuts, and that was only around the Crescent LOL.

I wouldn't mind, but the scrutes don't check the wheel nuts or anything like that, they simply check labels and dates, and you don't need an engineering background for that. I'm sure that for reason of 'elf'n'safety scrutes aren't allowed to check more or they'd have to check everything. Therefore what's the use of scrutineering at the event beyond eligibility? Therefore why do you need legions of highly-trained people when it's down to checking numbers and dates?

How about a once-a-year "MOT" for racing cars, then participants have to sign to say that their car complies with the safety requirements at every race meeting. Clerks (not C-of-the-Cs, I didn't mean them) can then check fire-ex, overalls etc, check fire-ex is armed as the car drives out the pits etc etc. One qualified scrute could be on hand to check over cars that have been involved in accidents. It's good enough for me to drive at 70mph (ahem) all day, every day on the motorway.

Just an example of how thinking out of the box can make changes.

BTW - I'm NOT having a go at scrutineers, just highlighting how the current world is moving away from old-fashioned beaureaucracy. We need to think much wider.

The difference between scrutineering in the UK & in Belgium is interesting. Here we do get checked as mini MOT for want of a better description before each meeting whereas at Spa recently I waited for 2 hours in baking heat, pushing the cr forward 6 feet or so every few minutes only for the Scrutes to ignore the car completely and just inspect my racewear/ boots/ underwear etc for in date labels.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by RTH

That is another page of nothing can be done.

And if you think like that then Im sure you will get nothing done, as Andy says and as I said at the bottom of my page of "nothing can be done" prove me wrong, prove us all wrong.

[RTH]

Why are you under the impression that this matter is in some way your responsibility?
The only people who can make meaningful changes are the governing body , the MSA , that is what they are paid for.It is not in the hands of any private individual you or me.

Are you saying that no one should be even allowed to voice an opinion or suggest where the problem lies?
As I am not chief executive of the MSA, I am not in a position either to restructure motor racing in this country.
I should have thought public debate on these matters is a way of bringing concern on these sort of issues to the forefront of the decision makers.

[PenelopePitstop]

One simple example - timekeepers - why? Club 100 runs 50 karts for 2.25 hours with just one person. All kart centres run multi-heat, multi-driver events with a teenager at the helm, it takes about 10 minutes to set up a 50 driver GP.

Or we could set everyone off at the same time, say by turning some red lights off or waving the national flag ... and then award the win to the competitor who does a set number of laps or a set distance first? Anyone think this concept has legs?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I wouldn't mind, but the scrutes don't check the wheel nuts or anything like that, they simply check labels and dates, and you don't need an engineering background for that. I'm sure that for reason of 'elf'n'safety scrutes aren't allowed to check more or they'd have to check everything. Therefore what's the use of scrutineering at the event beyond eligibility? Therefore why do you need legions of highly-trained people when it's down to checking numbers and dates?

How about a once-a-year "MOT" for racing cars, then participants have to sign to say that their car complies with the safety requirements at every race meeting. Clerks (not C-of-the-Cs, I didn't mean them) can then check fire-ex, overalls etc, check fire-ex is armed as the car drives out the pits etc etc. One qualified scrute could be on hand to check over cars that have been involved in accidents. It's good enough for me to drive at 70mph (ahem) all day, every day on the motorway.

Just an example of how thinking out of the box can make changes.

BTW - I'm NOT having a go at scrutineers, just highlighting how the current world is moving away from old-fashioned bureaucracy. We need to think much wider.

Different scrutineers check different things, this year my scrutineering experiences have ranged from simple label checks to near enough a full MOT.

As for a yearly MOT type certificate, we've been there before and I doubt it would work as things are constantly changing with cars during a season plus some people need protecting from themselves and the rest of us need protecting from some people so as much as I hate it I feel scrutineering is needed.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by RTH

Why are you under the impression that this matter is in some way your responsibility?
The only people who can make meaningful changes are the governing body , the MSA , that is what they are paid for.It is not in the hands of any private individual you or me.

Are you saying that no one should be even allowed to voice an opinion or suggest where the problem lies?
As I am not chief executive of the MSA, I am not in a position either to restructure motor racing in this country.
I should have thought public debate on these matters is a way of bringing concern on these sort of issues to the forefront of the decision makers.

Damn, I was really looking forward to entering the "EasyRTH" Low Cost Tin Tops series in 2011 as well.

Oh well.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by RTH

Why are you under the impression that this matter is in some way your responsibility?
The only people who can make meaningful changes are the governing body , the MSA , that is what they are paid for.It is not in the hands of any private individual you or me.

Are you saying that no one should be even allowed to voice an opinion or suggest where the problem lies?
As I am not chief executive of the MSA, I am not in a position either to restructure motor racing in this country.
I should have thought public debate on these matters is a way of bringing concern on these sort of issues to the forefront of the decision makers.

lol...erm...I believe you used on me the term "thats just another page of nothing can be done "yet, you are now admitting that YOU cannot do anything???

ok enough back and forth point scoring, lets make it simple. Its OUR responsability Richard, not just mine or yours its everyone who loves motorsport ...if you think the MSA are doing a bad job who is going to tell them?...because, if they think they are doing a good job...then they wont will they and according to your account, they are doing a bad job?

Public debate is a wonderful thing Richard, its what those great servicemen and women fought for in two great wars and we love it...I love its freedom and just as YOU are entitled to your opinion that race entry fees are too high, Im entitled to MINE whereby although I agree that they are not the same price as in 1955 or whatever, neither is the cost of living!

If you feel that strongly about it, do what we did ...go try make a difference but dont say that you have suggested where the problems lie because you havent, all you have done is said that you think expense is too high, complained about how much it costs without anaylising what the costs are for.

Im in with Andy, I cant wait for the easyRTH 2011

No hard feelings
Claire

[SFurness]

Hi,

If I remember correctly about 30 years ago an entry fee for a FF1600 race was about £18, its now ten times that.

About the same time I was paying 12.5 p for a pint of bitter, its now twenty times that.

Wages for a twenty something year old then and now must more than twenty times different.

Things do go up in price over time

If you think my memeory is suspect its probably all that cheap beer thirty years ago.

By the way scrutineers check your lights, steering arms, brake lines, seat and belts are in securley, cut off switches are working and there is plenty of times when they find cars that are sub standard.

Steve

[Al Weyman]

Just maybe in this world of supply and demand and as long as there isnt an option to sell off the circuits, with dwindling numbers circuit owners will have no choice but to lower charges.

[RTH]

Originally Posted by SFurness

Hi,

If I remember correctly about 30 years ago an entry fee for a FF1600 race was about £18, its now ten times that.

About the same time I was paying 12.5 p for a pint of bitter, its now twenty times that.

Wages for a twenty something year old then and now must more than twenty times different.

Things do go up in price over time

If you think my memeory is suspect its probably all that cheap beer thirty years ago.

By the way scrutineers check your lights, steering arms, brake lines, seat and belts are in securley, cut off switches are working and there is plenty of times when they find cars that are sub standard.

Steve

A pint of beer in a pub in 1980 for 12 pence ?........in Britain ?

Here is the official UK inflation rate calculator, you can put in whatever dates you like and get the inflation over that period

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/I...sp#calcresults

[RTH]

The entry fee and registration last year for Formula Ford was £6000 spread over 25 rounds you had to do 3 races per weekend this then works out at £240 per race if you do them all.

http://www.britishformulaford.co.uk/costs.htm

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Just maybe in this world of supply and demand and as long as there isnt an option to sell off the circuits, with dwindling numbers circuit owners will have no choice but to lower charges.

Al, you've been in business a long time, if you had falling sales and you possibly knew that the drop was due to something irreversible in the economy over the next few years and there was no competition to your business, would you lower prices knowing you wouldn't increase sales or raise them to compensate for the loss of income?

[GORDON STREETER]

Sitting on the sidelines relaxing in the sun I have been following this thread from the start. Although I dont know the difinitive answer I wonder (in real tearms) how much the cost for a race (pro rata) has gone up over the years compared with wage rises ?

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by RTH

A pint of beer in a pub in 1980 for 12 pence ?........in Britain ?

Not sure about 1980....but I do remember when I was being weaned onto Thwaites in 1968 a pint of bitter was 1s10d - about 9p.......but I don't know what race fees were then because I was struggling to pay the 5/- (25p) a gallon for petrol, until I started work as a junior manager with Post Office Telecomms - on £815 per year.

So inflation rates for different things change at different rates - bitter is now (in Lancashire) typically about £2.60 a pint (29x increase), petrol around here is around £1.15/litre = £5.23/gal (approx 21x increase).....

Lets face it, nit-picking about a few hundred quid in scrutineers costs pales into insignificance compared to the circuit hire costs, £23.15 per capita and insurance fees, etc.

At the end of the day I guess its all down to supply and demand....if enough people continue to pay the entry fees the organisers will continue to run the races so long as they aren't losing money (360 being a unique exception I guess ) - if people won't pay then meetings will be unviable and some clubs will probably fail, but also circuit owners will start to have empty slots....will that cause them to raise or drop their prices? That I guess is the big question

MSA are undertaking an overall review of Rallying according to a newletter I have seen, to try to raise its profile and reverse falling entries....maybe they'll do the same for Racing?

[SFurness]

Perhaps 12.5 p a pint was bit more than 30 years ago, but not that much.

It was "up north" as well, Joseph Holt's best bitter. Mild was a penny (new 1 p Richard) cheaper.

I can remember when they first intorduced lager in the pub for the "girls" who couldn't cope with the bitter.

There was some clever marketing men back in those days the lager was called regal, get it.

Have I gone off thread, must be time for a drink.


Steve

[drjim]

I am going to the BMW car club trackday at Silverstone on 6th october. To hire the circuit costs £24,680 on a Wednesday in October. Obviously smaller circuits cost less, but it will be no cheaper for a race meeting on a weekend. That's an awful lot of entries to pay that bill. We are paying £249 each for a full day of OPL, presumably 100 cars entered (or less cars with multiple drivers and passengers to hit the target, I don't know exactly how it adds up). If you add timekeepers etc on top of that for racing then it gets daft unless you have lots of entries.

Will anything get cheaper is the question - erm no - except if you die young you will pay less tax over your lifetime.

If you can afford it do it while you can - I will do an ARDS test next year and take my trackday toy racing while motorsport is still theoretically affordable.

Jim

[Al Weyman]

I dont agree with this that the circuits will never lower their fees, there may come a time at the rate we are going they have to. I have cut prices in my business like everyone merely to survive so why should they be any different if times get tough.

[midgetman]

Hah! Ain't that true Al...30 years ago when I started selling racewear, Nomex gloves were £40 + VAT and a luxury buy...now we sell 'em for £20 + VAT. Go figure what that does to profits LOL

Drjim has a valid point though...maybe the answer is as we've been saying a complete re-design of the beaureaucracy of motorsport so we can cram in more races in a day, spread the cost between more competitors, cut down the number of race meetings so every one attracts Combe-esque crowds, pack the grids to make sure that per capita fees are reduced etc etc

Whatever, the groundswell of opinion here from competitors seems to be that racing needs a re-think and a re-vamp to stop it withering away. There's an article in Motorsports News that the MSA are holding an enquiry into the falling number of entries in stage rallies, how long before racing has to have the same treatment?

[R59]

Eggggggzaktly!

That's what we need.

Whether the MSA would do anything is doubtful though.

We live in a land where the easy option is to take the negative approach, rather than to be positive and find the solution.