Should the BMW M3 CSL Be classed as a GT car and be Eligable for the GT/NGT Class?

[Dani Filth]

personaly i'm againts .. and the ideea that Alfasud gave .. not be able to homologate in Group A/N and NGT ...is a good one ...

[Cynic]

I don't put a lot of faith in definitions as far as the rules go. It's not as if BMW haven't tried to bend them already with the M3 GTR. And I can't really follow that arguement about the M3 and the 911 having a lot in common. They may both be 2+2's, and have a lot of horsepower, but they were designed to meet completely different purposes. The 911 was designed as an out and out sports car. I don't believe there's ever been any intention to market it as a practical car. The 3-series on the other hand was aimed at the "city slickers". You can blast it around the back roads or the test track, and then still use it to drop the kids off at school on Monday morning. It's a completely different animal.
It's the same with the Golf running in British GT. Fair enough, it's on the pace, but it has nothing in common with the ideals of GT racing. Leaving aside the fact that it's wrong-wheel drive (which to me is it's biggest sin), it was conceived and built as a hot-hatch although the phrase wasn't really around then.
What we should be asking is if the M3 is allowed to race as a GT, where do we go from here. Will the likes of Mercedes, Jaguar and possibly even GM or Ford suddenly start producing pumped of versions of their better selling saloons? I for one do not want to see a gris full of cars that I can see down the supermarket. Keep the saloons in Touring cars where they belong, and lets keep GT for cars that have always been sportscars.

[Andy Zarse]

A foot in both camps here!

Ayse, the Porsche, as you well know, started life as a b*******ised VW Beetle. Hardly the most auspicious heretage for a sportscar car. And the basic design is just awful. I mean, a rear engine! One cannot think off a worse place to put it in a sportscar or indeed a GT.

OTOH, the M3 is nothing more than a (beautifully engineeered) hot hatch. But it is very far removed from a 316i, maybe as far as a 911 is from a beetle. If you ask the question, what fundamentally is the difference between a F550 or a Vette and a M3, I think in pure technical terms, very little.

The threads and contributors seem to be mixing up some fundamental points on what constitutes a GT and/or a sportscar IMO. The No camp seem to be saying the M3 should not compete in GT class because it is not a thoroughbred sportscar. I agree it is not. But it is very much, and by any definition, a GT car. Clearly, GT means Grand Tourismo. I would rather go grand tourismo-ing around Europe in an M3 than say a boneshaking TVR, which is clearly a sportscar.

So finally, I think we have to differentiate between what is a sportscar and what is a GT. Maybe the class should be re-named the Sportscar Class rather than GT class. This would then cut out the BMW etc once and for all. Unless and until this happens (something I would very much like to see), then the BMW is welcome to enter Le Mans under the current regs and in the full spirit of GT.

[Highlander]

Andy well done you've siad all in one post


end of thread me thinks

[kdr]

i think nowadays you could go gran tourismo-ing(great phrase)around europe in practically every family saloon. if thats the theory behind the M3 being classed as a GT then we could soon see every manufacturers pumped up hot family saloon turning up at le mans/alms.

as cynic says...why not gm and ford? the bmw was racing against the vectra and the mondeo not that long ago...till someone welded the 2 back doors and shoehorned a bigger engine in.

[kdr]

reading the article in autocar it seems that the M3 will become a 4-door only, the two door to be badged as an M4.

as i've said before the proposed M6 seems far more in tune with what i'd certainly like to see in le mans/alms. bmw might see this also as the article intimates car will be pitched against the porsche and aston martin, two cars that we see or hope to see in gt racing.

i'll leave the last word to the bmw spokesman, their words to describe the M6 - "a true GT with supercar acceleration and handling to match". lets hope they, or someone else takes it racing.

[Aysedasi]

Whoops. My apologies to pirenzo. Instead of quoting his post and responding, I've managed to edit it instead...... (see above).

I guess that's what happens when someone disagrees with me

[paul-collins]

Funny, this has cropped up in another forum, too (again and again, I must say). One defender of the BMW said

>BMW makes touring cars, no?

BMW says they make GT's, Porsche says they make touring cars and prototypes that look like touring cars...

So, if the criteria is that the manufacturer itself says it's a GT, then is this a gt?



...didn't think so.

[SALEEN S7R]

Of course that isnt a GT car, it has 4 doors.

[Highlander]

What the Hell is that?

Looks like a Grand am

it be no good in england too many speed ramps (bigger than bumps)

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Of course that isnt a GT car, it has 4 doors.

What is it with this doors fetish?

Its a nice looking and I suspect I wouldn't regard it as a GT, but, for my money, on looks alone, its closer than the M3.

[Lee Janotta]

It's a riced-out late model Pontiac Grand Am. Blech!

I've driven the damned things. Touring cars! And lousy ones at that!

The driveline is one of the top criteria. Anything front-drive is instantly a touring car, _not_ a GT.

Andy, that was a great post.

In a 318i, driving around Europe is just touring. In an M3, it's _grand_ touring.

[Aysedasi]

Grand Touring an M3 maybe, but it aint a sportscar.


So call it a GT if you wish, it's just a name after all, a tag which in essence is fairly meaning less. Unless the powers that be are persauded by meaningless tags, of course.....

[Adam43]

Aysedasi, you are spot on with everything you have said in this thread.

It certainly isn't a sportscar.

[SALEEN S7R]

Well the car is eligable for Sportscar racing, alongside Porsches and Ferrari 360s so the rules say. And just judging from the results of the Poll so far, the vast majority of people who have voted think it belongs in sportscar racing. Dont be suprised to see a M3 CSL or another version of a M3 at Le Mans within the next 5 years. I know it woudnt suprise me in the least.

Whether or not u count the car as a sportscar is down to personal opinion I guess. But the car is a GT car, that I think everyone, well almost everyone agrees with.

[kdr]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
In a 318i, driving around Europe is just touring. In an M3, it's _grand_ touring.

so an M3 is a touring car then?

[KA]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta

The driveline is one of the top criteria. Anything front-drive is instantly a touring car, _not_ a GT.

There's supposed to be an Alfa GTV appearing in British GT later in the season, and Lotus did build a fwd sportscar a few years ago- remember the 1990's Elan?-, but otherwise it's not a bad principle to include....

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by kdr
so an M3 is a touring car then?

Then in that case are cars like, Saleen S7R, Ferrari 550, Lister Storm etc touring cars? After all they run in the FIA GT series = Grand Touring Championship. I dont think so!

[kdr]

is the bmw allowed to run in that series?

[skycafe]

My golf bag test, which I meant as a crack, would be the sort of thing that would classify a sports car long ago. You couldn't really get a golf bag in an MG TD, a Lotus 7, an Austin Healy Sprite...it used to mean two seats, a rag top, rasping exhaust, manual gear change, no air con, a heater that didn't, etc. Light weight, nimble, fun to drive.

It is all blurred now, isn't it? In the states at least the Mazda Miata was the rebirth of such cars, but there aren't that many others. A Miata can have air conditioning, a CD player--and I don't know for sure and don't want to verify as it will depress me, you can probably order it with automatic transmision. GROAN! Most I see in Central Florida have their tops up regardless of weather.

I just rambled right off the face of the earth there. I am big on tradition but I think times do change.

Now I will go along with you on sports car or GT body style, but it can't have front drive? The Lotus is a good example, but there are a several others out there too.

I want a catterham, with a Judd v8!

[skycafe]

OH, and I still can't believe that no one ever took shot at me for owning a Pontiac Le Mans (built by Daewoo)! It was an Aero Coupe model, by the way!!!!

And I would NOT want to have seen it going down Mulsanes.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by kdr
is the bmw allowed to run in that series?

Yes it is, but GTR isnt allowed in for obvious reasons (homlogation) and for some reason nobody sees fit to enter a M3 in the series. Unlike the ALMS, but yes the car is eligable for the FIA GT series.

[Andy Zarse]

Originally posted by kdr
i think nowadays you could go gran tourismo-ing(great phrase)around europe in practically every family saloon. if thats the theory behind the M3 being classed as a GT then we could soon see every manufacturers pumped up hot family saloon turning up at le mans/alms.

KDR, you could tour europe in the fifties in an Austin Hereford or Ford Pop! But personally I would have choosen an Jaguar XK120. The crucial word here I think is "Grand". The point about a GT was always that it would, with some style, whip the arse off a contemporary saloon car (or "ordinary touring" car) in the blast down to Cannes. Or to Le Mans for that matter. I suppose the modern equivalent to the Pop and 120 are the Mondeo and Jag XKR. One is a touring car the other a GT.

And Ayse, I think you sort of acknowledge the M3 is actually a GT car but don't want to see it race in a class called GT. Am I right? If so, I find this a bit strange.

But I know precisely what you mean! I too want to see proper sportscars racing, not stupid bloody GTs. Hence I believe the class should be re-named as the Sportscar Class. The GT monicker should be binned, in racing terms it has become redundant, as very few true GTs actually race.

[Andy Zarse]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Aysedasi, you are spot on with everything you have said in this thread.

It certainly isn't a sportscar.

You're right Adam, it's a GT not a sportscar. So why can't it race in the category called GT???

Let's apply a bit of logic guys.

[John Turner]

The fact that it's not a sportscar doesn't make it a GT. On the other hand, if there is nowhere else to race it, then I'd like to see it racing in GT class. To me Sportscar, GT, Touring car and Coupe are four different genre, but these days the regs get so blurred it's more difficult to maintain these distinctions. The fact that the N-GT regs include open cars doesn't make them GT cars per se. If they are open, they are sportscars, not GTs. The M3CSL is probably closest to the Touring car category, albeit a pretty spectacular one. In Coupe form, as the M4, it is err well .... a Coupe! Still like to see them race though. Perhaps we should reinvent Formula Libre where anything goes (but this time excluding open wheeled cars). Just one last thought. What's the just out of production M Coupe? I love this bizarre looking beast, but despite BMW calling it
a coupe, I reckon it's more like a GT.