Should the BMW M3 CSL Be classed as a GT car and be Eligable for the GT/NGT Class?

[Raptor303]

Hi guys,

Now that BMW has released their new M3 CSL as direct competition against the 911 GT3, do you think we can expect to see someone running it at LM in '04? The car looks pretty nice, with carbon fiber body panels and all. And since they're selling pretty well, BMW wouldn't run into the issues they had with the GTR.

-Mike

[gttouring]

BMW is still sore at the ACO for those shenanigans, I wonder if they won't try GTS with the 6series coupe, or stay in touring car until they can get a coupe together proper, i don't know
The BMW's are missed though, I hope the 3 Gt cars come and make good battles in the next few years.
ferarri 360Modena, Porsche GT3, and the BMW M3CSL-GT, where are the others though? maybe they should let touring cars run here too

[Aysedasi]

Raptor, you really should know better than ask this question while I'm around

If this was a poll, my answer would be a very simple - no.

[Dani Filth]

no ....

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Raptor, you really should know better than ask this question while I'm around

If this was a poll, my answer would be a very simple - no.

But why? - It's got a roof...

[Raptor303]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Raptor, you really should know better than ask this question while I'm around

If this was a poll, my answer would be a very simple - no.

I'm sorry, I'm new around here. If you don't mind me asking, what do you have against the M3?

[gttouring]

welcome to the forum by the way raptor.
well I like the BMW and the more the merrier, but it is a widely held belief that the BMW is a touring car, 4 doors, with a coupe version (it is a variation on a 4 door, not a true GT) and so it realy doesn't fit. I am sure there is more but I hope this helps-Aysedasi also say the AUDI R8 is a hideous car

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally I dont have anything against the BMW's. They arent like DTM cars, they have more grunt for starters and in my eyes are as classy as Porsches. I also think that the M3 is available in a coupe. The GTR isnt available at all though. There are plenty of BMW M3 coupes about, and they are as class as Porsches if u ask me. And they cost about the same kind of price. Its not as though ur getting a 3.0ltr twin turbo Supra and putting it into GT racing after all so give the car a break I say.

[paul-collins]

BMWs are nice touring cars. I loved my 2002. But I drove it into the ground.

[iucrmh]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Raptor, you really should know better than ask this question while I'm around

If this was a poll, my answer would be a very simple - no.

But surely, the spirit of Le Mans should allow such beasts. After all, going back to the early days, the cars were supposed to have 4 seats..... Weren't the two seaters penalised in some fashion, something about having to erect the roof before starting the race. Anything for a bit more variety at the front of the GT class.

[Raptor303]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
I also think that the M3 is available in a coupe. The GTR isnt available at all though. There are plenty of BMW M3 coupes about, and they are as class as Porsches if u ask me. And they cost about the same kind of price. Its not as though ur getting a 3.0ltr twin turbo Supra and putting it into GT racing after all so give the car a break I say.

Yep, currently the M3 is ONLY available as a coupe. The 4-door was the previous generation of the M3 (the E36 chasis). The E46 M3 is 2 door coupe or cabrio only. Here's some pics of mine: http://home.earthlink.net/~hatshepsut100/m3/

Now you can see why I like 'em so much.

[SALEEN S7R]

So in fact it IS a GT car if u want to look at it like that. All of the other cars ie Porsches, Ferrari 360s etc are all coupes. So is the BMW, the only differnce is it looks like the M3 touring car. But in the spirit of the rules id say its just as much of a GT car as the Porsches.

All Porsche 911s are considered GT cars, but I wonder is a Porsche Cup car considered a GT car? It has less power than DTM cars for example. And is about the same speed as a top BMW M3. The BMW M3 GTR or the new BMW M3 CSL have the same power outputt as a Porsche 911 GT3 RS. Therefore its not a touring car, the regular M3's are though. Or at least thats how I see it.

[Raptor303]

SALEEN, that's exactly what I was thinking! The CSL, in my opinion, gives the M3 a chance to compete with the GT3 RS.

I suppose it's all about how one feels what really defines these different types of cars, and of course if anyone has the money to race one.

[skycafe]

Cars. The more the merrier. And fielded by a manufacturer! Don't shoo them away based on door count and roof line. If a Porsche, a BMW and a Ferrari are having a ding dong battle for a class win that is much better then three Porsches having a ding dong battle.

[Aysedasi]

I promise guys I shall say this just one last time and then I'll shut up.

The BMW M3 is a touring car, it isn't a sportscar. It should not race in sportscar events and molst certainly not in the greatest sportscar race of them all. Whatever may have happened in the past is done and dusted.

If they let the M3 in, I shall enter my Daewoo......

[weeks]

I read an article reporting that BMW will expand thier M line of cars by providing an M3, M4, M5, and M6 to compete with the Mercedes AMG brand. It also mentioned CSL versions of the M4 and M6 but nothing about a CSL version of a M3. I thought it was only a concept and BMW had no plans of a CSL M3.

[kdr]

the M6 looks vaguely gt-ish...but the rest sure look like touring cars to me. i'm slightly puzzled by the enthusiasm shown here for these sorts of cars.

maybe when we're at la sarthe or spa - and we see a bmw 3 series, a vw golf, a seat toledo, and ayses daewoo....we might think to ourselves "this ain't right"!

[Nordic]

Would a Z4 not be a better option to go back into sports cars for BMW?, having said that the new M3 CSL BMW as it is a coupe would in my mind be ok. I would be more worried if that 'GT' Golf somehow ends up in the FIA GT or god forbid Le Mans.

[BSchneiderFan]

Are we really arguing about touring cars vs. sports cars on the basis of the degree of rake of the rear window? Why is the Porsche 911 a sportscar (two-door, powerful engine) but the M3 not (two-door, powerful engine)? I'm not seeing this at all.

[SALEEN S7R]

Neither am I BSchneider, maybe its because some people see BMW as a touring car manufacturer and not a Sportscar manufacturer? To me though, BMW is a sportscar manufacturer AND a touring car manufacturer.

[Aysedasi]

The degree of rake is totally immaterial. It really doesn't take too much gumption to work out whether a car is a true sportscar or something which someone would like to be regarded as a sportscar. My strong views with regard to the M3 have nothing at all against BMW as a sportscar manufacturer - after all, they produced one of the most beautiful open LMPs to be seen at Le Mans in the last few years. Whether the car has two doors or four is actually relevant. A car clearly designed as a "saloon" (albeit a powerful one) doesn't become a sportscar or a GT just because you adjust the bodywork and take two of the doors away. I'm all for BMW competing at Le Mans again, but not with a car the concept of which has been around for donkey's years and which I saw (with great delight) ruin John Clelland's BTCC aspirations at Silverstone a few years ago. If BMW want to run a sportscar at Le Mans, great, but do it properly.

I guess we approach the equation from different standpoints. I'd love to see more manufacturers back at Le Mans (God, how many times have I said this now), but the concept of Le Mans and sportscar racing can only be devalued if cars not developed as true sportscars are allowed to compete as GTs. Doesn't matter how quick they are. The "more the merrier" argument is only partly right. If the ACO suddenly said we'll allow absolutely anything into the GT class provided that it'll do 150 mph on the straights could attract any number of new cars/manufacturers but that wouldn't make them GTs.

The M3/911 comparison argument just doesn't stand up. Lets face it, the 911 is, was and always will be a sportcar.

If I'm arguing something you don't agree with, well, fine. But as someone who has had an 18 year love affair with Le Mans, I do not want to see it devalued (as I perceive it) by allowing something in which shouldn't be there. (IMO)

[AllonFS]

Hear Hear!

[skycafe]

OK--First the public humiliation/open myself to hysterical laughter and endless floggings: I owned a Deawoo for a while which in the states was badged as a Pontiac Le Mans...

Now, if you are still with me here, I am confused over the touring car vs GT/sports car issue. Please understand that I do also love Le Mans and endurance sports car racing above all other forms of motorsport, a rather difficult prospect when living in the states. Things have gotten better over the years, but as a youngster I often didn't know the Le Mans victors for months until the big US magazines published reports (long lead time).

Living in the states may also have warped my senses here.
Was a Chevy Camaro a GT?
Ford Mustang?
Jaguar XJS?

I know in Europe they were run as touring cars, but also ran in GT classes (I don't remember if XJS ever ran at Le Mans).

Can a GT car be front drive? A Golf is a touring car, but was a Corrado (I don't know how they badged it in Europe) a touring car or a GT?

I personally want the GTP/LMP classes to continue and prosper. I am thrilled to see things like TVR, Morgan, etc. in GT races and at Le Mans.

As long as the playing field is level I don't mind at all if a BMW is racing a Porsche and Ferrari for a class win.

I am not trying at all to be throwing fuel under a cauldron here, I am more trying to gain a perspective. I live in the states and used to drive a Daewoo badged as a Le Mans, so have pity/mercy on me!

And Aysedasi, if you do end up at Le Mans with a Daewoo, then I supply the beer!

[SALEEN S7R]

Because of a thread already started on this, and no definitive decision has been made, I thought it might be a good idea to do a Poll for this issue. Personally I think the car is a GT car, it only has 2 doors in the road version, has the same engine power as a Porsche 911 GT3 RS, if not a little more perhaps and therefore makes it every bit as much of a GT car as a Porsche 911.

[pirenzo]

is this the same car that ran in the ALMS 2 years ago?

if so, then definitely yes. Awesome car. for a minute there in 2000-2001 i was interested in the GT classes