[WTCC] Round 1 - Curitiba (BRA), 5th - 7th March

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Pato

Tom Coronel.

Actually someone on TCT watched the replay back and it was Tarquini.

[rustyfan]

Not a good evening for me in terms of picks, only got Huff's second place finish in race one right

[JamesRamone]

I agree with people's comments. Boring races even with the downpour for race 1. Does seem to have lost some of its fire power.

For it to be the premier touring car series it needs more drivers like rydell, thompson, giovanardi, plato, turkington, etc

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Actually someone on TCT watched the replay back and it was Tarquini.

The damage Coronel got matched with what happened to Priaulx. Did someone see what happened to Coronel elsewhere perhaps?

[redshoes]

Coronel was hit by a Chevy.

[tator2001uk]

yeah boring again, might wanna stick to btcc(although could proove the same!)
F1 this year i reckon!!

[FIRE]

I think he was hit by Huff. Assume that's the reason why he could not keep up with Menu and Muller.

[Craner Curves]

Not the most exciting beginning to a season, but then that track doesn't lend itself to overtaking.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by JamesRamone

For it to be the premier touring car series it needs more drivers like rydell, thompson, giovanardi, plato, turkington, etc

I'd say the problems with the WTCC run far deeper than the current pool of drivers.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Actually someone on TCT watched the replay back and it was Tarquini.

You don't even need to see a replay. The fact "SEAT hits other brand car, other car doesnt finish race" is usually enough for assuming the SEAT was driven by Tarquini.

Meanwhile, was I the only one reacting to Barth's "pass" of Norbert? Hamilton was penalized in F1 not too long ago for exactly that type of move, ie cut 1 corner setting him up for an easy overtake in the next corner. Guess the FIA memo of what constitutes an unfair advantage by cutting a corner now days never reached the WTCC stewards.

[Bunman]

Originally Posted by stedevil

You don't even need to see a replay. The fact "SEAT hits other brand car, other car doesnt finish race" is usually enough for assuming the SEAT was driven by Tarquini.

Meanwhile, was I the only one reacting to Barth's "pass" of Norbert? Hamilton was penalized in F1 not too long ago for exactly that type of move, ie cut 1 corner setting him up for an easy overtake in the next corner. Guess the FIA memo of what constitutes an unfair advantage by cutting a corner now days never reached the WTCC stewards.

You took the words right out of my mouth on both points.

[Andy77]

I just wanted to sleep before I comment on this. Sometimes it is better to put some time between the comment and what I just witnessed.

So, Seat pulled the works plug ? I don't think so. At least Sunred is a semi works team. Which adapted to factory team tactics quite fast. So Gene leads but pulls aside and waves through Tarquini as soon as he can. I really don't know how often I got bitter about the same move last season. This particular move gives the idea of how this season is going to be. No matter which Seat leads if it is Tarquini behind he will get waved through. If we don't see a fight between team mates at this early stage we won't see it throughout the season. Personally, I find it sick to favour a driver that early and as a fan of this series such dirty tactics make me pretty disappointed towards the series.

I am disappointed of BMW too although I didn't really awaited much more of them with their two man factory team. The only highlight to me was Franz Engstler in the independents. The guy has still that much metal in his shoulder from last seasons Macau accident, that he'd need an own mechanic just for that but finishes quite high up despite that injury.

I am impressed by the Chevrolets team performance during qualifying and race 1 though. But I am not sure if the race 1 performance was more due to the wet circuit after seeing how easy seat was able to establish and hold the lead in race 2.

And yes I also feel that Barth should have been penalised for his move against Michelisz. The question however, like in in the mentioned Hamilton incident, is how you want to measure the advantage the clipping brings.

After all, I saw two rather boring races. Both could have taken place in last season easily too. As of yet nothing other than some of the actors have changed.

So, now I wait for the announcement regarding the Puebla replacement and hope that the next round really shows the change

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Andy77

And yes I also feel that Barth should have been penalised for his move against Michelisz. The question however, like in in the mentioned Hamilton incident, is how you want to measure the advantage the clipping brings.

I think the termonology used was "not allowed to pass this or the next corner". Pretty straight and fair rule I would say (though the first time implementation could be discussed, since it took the world by surprise).

As for team tactics, Gene might be doing things out of old habit. Not sure ALL the TDI drivers will be that quick to move to the side. But I guess time will tell.

Anyway, was expecting quite a bit more from Michelisz, but got an explanation just now after taking a peak at his English website. His diffuser apparently got damaged in the off in Q2, so he ran all of race 1 completely without a diffuser and race 2 he had engine troubles in the mid part of the race.

Was also fun to hear Tommo and Haven discussing how BMW needs to get the sequential gearbox into their cars, to be on par with the rest gearbox wise and increase their chances to overtake. I remember me complaining about that for half the last season as well, and now with the stronger Chevies it's clear the problem is the BMWs inability to pass more than that the TDIs where "impassable". Wonder if we will see BMW switching gearbox during the season or not.

[Craner Curves]

You would think they would change to a sequential 6 speed box as soon as possible. I can't understand why they've stuck with the H-pattern for so long. Surely if they had fitted it, then moaned enough to the FIA, then they would have got a weight reduction anyway!

[Sodemo]

If they do fit the 6 speed seq and take the 30kg penalty, that will mean they are 55kg heavier as a base weight than the Chevy's, and 45kg heavier than the SEAT's. To add to that, I don't think the BMW lump is as powerful as the Chevy, and no where near the TDI of the SEAT. So they will be loads heavier, with a weaker engine.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Was also fun to hear Tommo and Haven discussing how BMW needs to get the sequential gearbox into their cars, to be on par with the rest gearbox wise and increase their chances to overtake. I remember me complaining about that for half the last season as well, and now with the stronger Chevies it's clear the problem is the BMWs inability to pass more than that the TDIs where "impassable". Wonder if we will see BMW switching gearbox during the season or not.

The FIA announced a while ago there would be no changes once the season starts so they will have to run at +30kg for that gearbox and I can't see them, doing that! http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=4272

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

You would think they would change to a sequential 6 speed box as soon as possible. I can't understand why they've stuck with the H-pattern for so long. Surely if they had fitted it, then moaned enough to the FIA, then they would have got a weight reduction anyway!

Exactly!
Now they just continue cutting themselves at the knees, by having a severe disadvantage, not in overal laptimes, but in ability to actually pass others. It worked fine in the old days, when the BMW was clearly the quicker car overall, but now when other cars are more equal, or even better in some respects, they suffer badly from the inferior gearbox.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If they do fit the 6 speed seq and take the 30kg penalty, that will mean they are 55kg heavier as a base weight than the Chevy's, and 45kg heavier than the SEAT's.

You need to check your maths. In Curitiba TDIs where 1170kg, BMW 1155kg (except Benani?), Cruze 1150kg, Lacetti 1140kg.

To add to that, I don't think the BMW lump is as powerful as the Chevy, and no where near the TDI of the SEAT. So they will be loads heavier, with a weaker engine.

That is why there is an advanced weight balancing system in effect since 2009. BMW is handicapping themselves by showing up good laptimes but trading it for inflexibility in the gearbox. Would be smarter to get on par with the gearbox and let the penaltysystem lower their weight if laptimes drop.

Originally Posted by touring fan01

The FIA announced a while ago there would be no changes once the season starts so they will have to run at +30kg for that gearbox and I can't see them, doing that!

Everybody else BUT BMW have already for years happily payed the +30kg on the weight. So what is your point?

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by stedevil

.....
That is why there is an advanced weight balancing system in effect since 2009. BMW is handicapping themselves by showing up good laptimes but trading it for inflexibility in the gearbox. Would be smarter to get on par with the gearbox and let the penaltysystem lower their weight if laptimes drop.
.....

Zanardi drove the sequential gear box last season already if I remember that right and his results were not that bad either when he didn't crash

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Everybody else BUT BMW have already for years happily payed the +30kg on the weight. So what is your point?

Firstly, how about you fix your attitude and cut out the derogatory tone of your replies to me and others!

My point is that their application to the FIA must be to run the gearbox without or with less the 30kg penalty. Otherwise why do they need apply?

Its already in the rules that they can run that gearbox anytime they want as long as they take the 30kg penalty. So if they are making an application it must be to change the gearbox weight rule. And the FIA have already said they wont change the weight rules or performance balance during the season so its a no-no for BMW.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

My point is that their application to the FIA must be to run the gearbox without or with less the 30kg penalty. Otherwise why do they need apply?

If seq gearbox should give less than 30kg penalty, ALL other cars will ALSO drop in weight, because ALL other cars ALSO run seq. Thus asking for lower weight penalty for semiautomatic gearboxes is pretty daft, it changes nothing 1 car from the next. You not understanding this is not me being condescending towards you.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

If seq gearbox should give less than 30kg penalty, ALL other cars will ALSO drop in weight, because ALL other cars ALSO run seq. Thus asking for lower weight penalty for semiautomatic gearboxes is pretty daft, it changes nothing 1 car from the next.

Of course it would change things. Obviously BMW would only be asking for the RWD sequential gearbox weight to be less, not the FWD sequential gearbox weight!

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Of course it would change things. Obviously BMW would only be asking for the RWD sequential gearbox weight to be less, not the FWD sequential gearbox weight!

Then, clearly, it is not about a seq gearbox weightpenalty reduction, but in essence a general change in BMW base weight. A general change in BMW base weight is indeed highly unlikely to happen.

As for what other things BMW could potentially be asking for is, since there currently is no seq BMW on the grid, that if they change they will not have to start at max weight ballast when introducing a "new model" for the first 2 race weekends (as example take eg Lada Priora that was allowed to start from race 1 with -20kg instead of +40kg from normal car weight weight).

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Then, clearly, it is not about a seq gearbox weightpenalty reduction, but in essence a general change in BMW base weight. A general change in BMW base weight is indeed highly unlikely to happen.

Huh?
They would not be asking for a change in the base weight, as it would reduce the weight for the car with the normal H pattern box as well and there is no call for that. Like I said before, they would only be asking for a change in the seq gearbox penalty weight.

As for what other things BMW could potentially be asking for is, since there currently is no seq BMW on the grid, that if they change they will not have to start at max weight ballast when introducing a "new model" for the first 2 race weekends (as example take eg Lada Priora that was allowed to start from race 1 with -20kg instead of +40kg from normal car weight weight).

LOL. Running the seq box instead of H pattern is not a new model! Besides its already been run last year by Zanardi.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Like I said before, they would only be asking for a change in the seq gearbox penalty weight.

And it's as wrong as the first time you said it. Because that brings us back to ALL cars getting reduced weight. You are insisting on talking about a BMW only weight reduction but calling it something else.

LOL. Running the seq box instead of H pattern is not a new model!

Please tell me how to tell you, in a non derogatory tone so you don't get upset, that we last year had 2 BMW models competing with the only difference that 1 model was with the H-pattern gearbox and the other with Seq.

Besides its already been run last year by Zanardi.

But that model hasn't been entered for this season and thus would get loaded up with maximum penalty the first 2 race weekends it participates unless they get a waiver. Or how do you interpret the success ballast rules?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

And it's as wrong as the first time you said it. Because that brings us back to ALL cars getting reduced weight. You are insisting on talking about a BMW only weight reduction but calling it something else.

We are talking about the Rear-Wheel-Drive sequential weight penalty. That means it is only for RWD cars. That means it only applies to BMW. That means if BMW applied for the RWD seq penalty to be reduced then it would only apply to the BMW's! So any weight reduction would obviously not apply to FWD cars as they are totally separate and have their own H pattern and FWD sequential weights. What part of that are you struggling to understand?

Please tell me how to tell you, in a non derogatory tone so you don't get upset, that we last year had 2 BMW models competing with the only difference that 1 model was with the H-pattern gearbox and the other with Seq.

What?? Its not a different model! Where did you dream that up from? Its the same car, just using a different gearbox option with a weight penalty. Show me where the FIA treat the same BMW with different gearboxes as different models!

But that model hasn't been entered for this season and thus would get loaded up with maximum penalty the first 2 race weekends it participates unless they get a waiver. Or how do you interpret the success ballast rules?

I repeat, it is not a different model. Show me where the FIA treats the sequential and H pattern BMW 320si as different models?!! Its the same car (model) and it is up to each team if they want to race it with either the basic H pattern or the optional sequential box (and take the +30kg penalty for the sequential).