Ferrari dismiss Stepney/McLaren suspend Coughlan

[Bononi]

All this talk is like the agony before death... honestly I'm sick of it.

[Bononi]

I like this bit :

The FIA likes to say that it is there to be the legislator and sometimes has to make unpopular decisions. That is fair enough but the World Council must also be aware of the commercial implications of its decisions, not just for McLaren but also for the sport itself. If the governance of the sport is seen to be lacking, confidence will be lost. Sponsors could flee. One needs only to look at cycling to see that scandal drives away money. The best solution if there have to be penalties would be intelligent penalties that add something to F1 rather than simply being seen as retribution. A ban would be far more destructive than a punishment which, for example, meant that McLaren had to overcome a points deficit in 2008.

And, perhaps most importantly, the FIA must see things from the point of view of the fans. The story this year has been the amazing achievements of Lewis Hamilton and his relationship with Fernando Alonso. This is what people are talking about. This is why F1 is growing. On the race tracks the McLarens and Ferraris have been close but there is no doubt about the results. Ferrari has been let down by reliability and by the fact that the maintenance of the wind tunnel was lacking and for three races (at least) the team did not perform as well as it should have done because the rolling road failed.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by pottiella

what a great article.

Depends on who is reading it.

With regard to my earlier post:Remember that Pedro was sent exactly the same letter (indeed that is his letter on the FIA website) as Fernando and Lewis.Pedro is not in the championship as such and has no points.But he is still threatened with "proceedings" should he wish not to divulge any information to the FIA.So maybe you would have to take the meaning of "not result in any proceedings" as not hanging on to your points,but hanging on to your Superlicence.

[TWRv12]

Anyone else see a mention of the theft of Stepney's documents that Coughlan recieved? Was mentioned in this weeks mnews(p8). Also mentioned the Prodrive backup plan. While Marca suggest Merc, might takeover McMerc if necessary...

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Anyone else see a mention of the theft of Stepney's documents that Coughlan recieved? Was mentioned in this weeks mnews(p8). Also mentioned the Prodrive backup plan. While Marca suggest Merc, might takeover McMerc if necessary...

The Prodrive thing I have thought for some time has been related to McLaren's position in all this; Marca although I don't think they say it from anything substantiated, it does seem like they are just using common sense and throwing in the obvious bias towards Alonso. I can totally see mercedes taking over though...

[Marbot]

Paul Stoddart (Stoddy) has some views on the current situation.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=32733

So he doesn't like Max or Ferrari.......so what's new!

[pottiella]

well in all fairness, he does have a bit of a point about Max Mosley. I've always called Max a "power junkie" so I guess Stoddart and I think on similar lines I don't like the man one bit...

I remember after the Monza penalty last year, he was all high and mighty about it, but come the time when Alonso had won the championship, and Schumi retired, he backtracked big time in his column with, was it F1 racing? Its not so much that he backtracked, but the really sickly way he went from one extreme to another whilst still trying to maintain authority.

[bosch!]

And even though its off topic, the "reserve" fuel tank was nothing new in F1 but Honda were still trying to forge ahead with the GPDA so it was them that got pinged for it, using penatlies that has been pointed out are inconsistantly being applied in this case and a really suspect procedure that did not allow them to protest other cars at the event.

Makes you wonder what a Mosely led govenment of the 1940's would have been like doesnt it.

[Dutton]

Honda were not penalised because they had a second fuel tank.

They were penalised for the use they made of the fuel tank (or, more specifically, the non-declaration of what they used with the tanks).

[Alwaysfirst]

If this hasn't already been posted then this makes me sick:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=32732

I cannot think that a team that genuinely thrives on competition would actually look positively on their closest rivals being thrown out of the championship.

He may think that this would be a great outcome but off hand comments like this just show how little they actually care about the fans. The fans would NOT like to see the title decided in a board room!

[Gt_R]

Anything that comes out from Ferrari can make you feel sick if you dislike the colour red in the first place.

Think about it.. do you think Luca's as the top management can say "Oh..we are sheepish that we win because Mclaren was thrown out". He'd be feeding himself to the sharks (Media) after Thursday. They do not look forward to win by having Mclaren out.. the stance is IF Mclaren was thrown out of the championship, it will be because they did something wrong. And if Ferrari had won because the team ahead did something wrong, then there is no reason why Ferrari doesn't deserve that championship.

And Luca acknowledges that this incident is bad for the sports and the fans, but nonetheless, it is a team's rights and the sport's right to see that the "rightness" is called out for.


Let me give you an example. In cycling, some cyclists dope..and the controversy is killing the sports big time. So does that mean that the authorities of that sports should keep quiet and not punish cyclists just to protect the interest of the sport, sweeping the dirt under the carpet?

[bosch!]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Honda were not penalised because they had a second fuel tank.

They were penalised for the use they made of the fuel tank (or, more specifically, the non-declaration of what they used with the tanks).

Yep true, but the FIA had been operating a "dont ask, dont tell" policy for quite a while.

Anyway we digress, back to the current Ferrari Points tax issue.

[Gt_R]

All in all, if we take away all the decorations, all the so-called "past" precedence, and all the media talk and speculations, we are presented with just a simple senario regarding thursday:

1) Is there sufficient evidence?

2) IF Mclaren is found guilty of their role in this scandal, do FIA put the hammer down based on the facts and judgement of the case, nothing more nor less? Or should FIA take into consideration the "name" of Mclaren (and effects/influences on the team's sponsors) as well as the WDC fight and let them off easy?

I'm keen to hear what position you guys hold on this issue, just around 24hrs before the hearing.


p.s. Can it break the 2000 post by the time of hearing?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Alwaysfirst

The fans would NOT like to see the title decided in a board room!

Either way it goes,that's what will happen on Thursday.

[Teretonga]

By Gt_R

I'm keen to hear what position you guys hold on this issue, just around 24hrs before the hearing.

Is there sufficient concrete evidence? We don't know. We have a lot of hearsay and talk but is there concrete evidence?

I have no idea. I know what I think should happen but I will not speculate on it. Wait and see. Ask Massa. He seems to know what is coming next.

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Ask Massa. He seems to know what is coming next.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Ask Massa. He seems to know what is coming next.

He said that he's now out of the championship... so that means McLaren drivers won't be docked points

[Gt_R]

In my opinion.

A wrong decision is when if Mclaren IS innocent, yet punished. And if Mclaren is guilty and not punished, it is an equally wrong punishment.

And when websites (ie grandprix.com) and the likes of Stewart (both categories have demonstrated an equal bias as any spanish or italian media) constantly attempt to use the "integrity of FIA/F1" as a challenge to the case, they are not doing our sports a favour (which is ironic, considering their constant claim and "i-know-what's-good-for-F1" talk). I mean, the reason why casual fans/public/sponsors would even feel that F1 will lose credibility is when they constantly read about people feeding false impressions of how this case is a witch-hunt, or a Max-revenge, or whatever..Unfortunatelym such "talk" forces FIA to constantly having to defend itself.

I'm not a fan of FIA/WMSC by ANY measures, they have made many calls which have hurt Ferrari's championship too... but then if we look at the big picture, i think Max/FIA really don't have to apologise to those pretenders who think they know it all.

Sorry, this rant came because of some nonsense which i've read from sources (one website and one individual) who i thought should have respected their positions and be more capable of being objective when making comments.

[Adam43]

If JYS thought that the INTEGRITY of FIA/F1 could be challenged by the outcome of the case, shouldn't they say so?

[davyboy]

If you look at professional cycling today you see a sport in total shambles. Doping is seriously frowned upon and irrespective of how stringent/frequent the testing is, its still going on. Sponsors have withdrawn and teams have folded as a direct result. But I think only a fool would believe that doping wasn't de riguer for practically every competitor back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Switch channel to Formula 1 for a second. McLaren appear to be intimating that Renault have been cheating in the last few days... and given the size, complexity and money involved in F1, one wonders how many other teams have been up to no good. The FIA claim that tomorrow's case concerns McLaren only... and that's true... but they cannot not investigate allegations against Renault, which means the possibility of another major scandal right after this one. I'm sure that's not the end of it either.

From the professional cycling case study, it would appear that punishment/sanctions doesn't solve the problem. However, the FIA are likely to go that way nonetheless. But I wonder how much damage will be done to F1 over the next 6-12 months through repeated scandals/cheating before the FIA come to terms with the fact that they need to seriously review the way the entire circus operates.

[Mystery]

I think there are a heck of a lot of assumptions here and I've not read a lot backing them up. I'm going to try and stick to what facts I believe are known.

1. The WMSC are reconvening to consider some new evidence.
2. McLaren's appeal is not being heard
3. We do not know the nature of the evidence but there is an implication the McLaren drivers might know something arising from the FIA letter.
4. The FIA have given a flavour of the possible sanctions that are available to them (pretty much anything they darn well choose really)
5. Previous espionage in F1 has resulted in no sanction (Toyota case)
6. Being economic with the truth in the past has been shown to result in short term bans (Honda fuel tank issue)
7. A Ferrari employee appears to be somewhat culpable in this case but his actions have not been considered or at least not in the public domain (which they may not be able to be due to legal issues)

My views
Why is McLaren's appeal no longer being held? Whether there is additional information or not, surely they have that right of appeal regardless.
Could it be that actually evidence has come to light that might give rise to the whole case being thrown out? Is that why McLaren have not whinged about their appeal not being heard - or is there more to this than meets the eye?

Renault appear to be the bad guys of the piece stirring things up for their own benefit. Ferrari are the victims of a rogue employee and may or may not be stirring the Italian media (although the media is capable of doing that on its own). McLaren may or may not have chosen to make use of information that came into their possession unsolicited, although once you have been told something isn't it pretty hard to ignore that information forever, or are you forced to avoid anything that happened to be suggested to you for fear of being accused of this sort of thing, irrespective of whether that happens to be the right solution to move performance forward.

What is clear is that the lack of genuine accurate information being made public is damaging F1. Unless McLaren is clearly and correctly found innocent then there will always be an asterisk sitting next to this years championship - not to say that they SHOULD be found innocent.

But if they are found guilty but still let off there will be many who will suggest it is a tainted championship due to the wrongdoing and if they are thrown out of the championship then Ferrari would essentially have been given the title and we would then be left to judge whether that decision itself would be fair based on whatever information is made available to the public.

Tomorrow the FIA really should be seen to have done justice and to do so it really must be very public about whatever decision is made. If not, then frankly we might as well all go home and let them decide whoever they want to win and not bother watching the bit where they let cars drive around a track.

[Gt_R]

Adam.

If the integrity of FIA is an issue, challenge it via the appropriate measures.

And what JYS nor Grandprix.com is doing is doing isn't a concern for the integrity of the sports, but rather on the belief that if FIA is wrong to even exert a degree of punishment on Mclaren, to the extent of regardless what the evidence.

They try to make a "relationship" out of Ferrari/FIA (ignoring the times when FIA vs Ferrari had their fair share of coming togethers) and flame the poor relationships between Max and Ron in order to discredit the reasons for the case, rather than analyze it based on its own merits.

Which is unfortunate, because they have a degree of reach to the casual fans, as well as expected to have a degree of credibility. To discredit the system with poorly backed up truths (rather a general feel/belief) is as harmful to the sturcture (in the form of propaganda) as the behavoirs they alledge FIA of.

All parties, such as main sources of media, reputable journalists, hardcore fans, teams, team managers and drivers and FIA have the same role to portray F1 in an accurate manner if they have the interest of the sports in mind as they claim, or through implications, claim.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Tomorrow the FIA really should be seen to have done justice and to do so it really must be very public about whatever decision is made. If not, then frankly we might as well all go home and let them decide whoever they want to win and not bother watching the bit where they let cars drive around a track.

My point earlier is that I don't think justice can be seen to be done without opening an almighty can of worms into other stuff that's gone on up and down the pitlane. e.g. McLaren may have derived benefit from information obtained illegally [illegally in the minds of the FIA rather than the law of the land here] but isn't what's happening between Toro Rossa and Red Bull, and between Super Aguri and Honda not too dissimilar i.e. transfer of information plus derived benefit ?
Furthermore, what about the situation of team personnel changes ? There are likely to be lots of examples raised of facsimile parts on cars appearing after the transfer of staff between teams. How will that be dealt with.

If FIA do decide to 'impose justice', they will need to be ready to accept the consequences that follow... which could be very severe indeed for the sport.

[Gt_R]

davy, i have mentioned before that the situation of team personnel changes has been widely accepted, and is different in nature to the theft and use of data which a certain team is being tried for.

However, in team personnel movements, the personnel is NOT allowed to bring with him copies of information which belongs to their previous team. That is why the ex-Ferrari employees (in the Toyota case) are punished. And if Newey had taken with him 700 pages of Mclaren drawings and/or Mclaren steering wheel to Red Bull without Ron's blessings, i believe Mclaren would come down on Newey as hard as Ferrari had on Nigel. And if Red Bull had used those data...

And FIA has made it clear that this case should be tried on it's own, with respect to the evidence and people involved and affected by its outcome. In short, whether Spyker should be tried, or teams arrangement of sharing information... it's for another day, another hearing if the parties want to address it.

IF FIA chose to drop this case without finding out the truth, that is when the consequences and damage will be most severe. Imagine cycling... the authorities suspect someone of doping, yet decide not to investigate (and punish if he's guilty) because somebody else said that news of dope will hurt the sport.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Adam.

If the integrity of FIA is an issue, challenge it via the appropriate measures.

Gazzetta de la sport?