Audi LMP1 Discussion

[bavila]

Originally Posted by bobec

I think you are either trolling, or you have zero understanding of LM or the series.


It's sad Audi won't be here for 2017. I will miss this forum

Again, no hate here whatsoever for Audi. I was one of the few (and i mean FEW) fans showing up to the ALMS races all over the country in the early 2000's, and even had the pleasure of racing with them in some the charity karting runs (San Jose was a blast! I came in 6th overall, beating out 12 other pro's, but of course, it was mostly due to a shady yellow flag where Frank Biela didn't slow down appropriately in front of me, so I followed suit!).

Audi's always been a class act team, and professional through and through, but it doesn't change the fact that they really needed more level competition to truly be regarded as legendary. And regardless of the team, I don't like to see anyone leave on a losing note. In the end, it does make more sense for Porsche to remain (between the two of them), as they're 'fresher' on the scene.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Even if it becomes a one-horse race? I know it can be dismissed as bluster, but when Porsche entered LMP1 the voices from Stuttgart were that they wanted to beat the best, and I think that (manufacturer) competition is still important to them, and to Toyota too. Should if one fall for whatever reason, I expect the other to follow in short order, likely after one more LM win.

I agree that Porsche would not race unless they had someone to race against. At the moment they still have Toyota and I while you also pointed out that the ACO may not take this as an opportunity to adjust course, I expect they will listen to the manufactures when it comes to direction. And Toyota and Porsche likely want it to be more than a two horse race. Meaning, they are not likely to push for status quo. However I also don't think they will let a new manufacture roll over them with their requests/demands when it comes to the negotiation table either!

Richard

[bavila]

Originally Posted by bobec

I'm not saying the accident made him a legend, but that maybe it ruined his potential. Even if he was never top material, there are plenty of drivers who never were. Why compare Audi to them?

I agree it may have ruined his potential. But that's my point: just remaining in the series doesn't make one great. Don't get me wrong, he was still competing at a level most of us can never experience, but based on his potential, I just can't vote him into the F1 Hall of Fame.

The comparison to Audi is similar: they remained (and mostly won) in the LM/ALMS/WEC for a long time, but based on their level of competition most years (again, not their fault!), I can't call them legendary. Like Wlad Klitschko in HW boxing: he won for many years, which was good, but when he fought top level comp, his record is not so impressive (and he more or less went out on a losing note to a not so skilled boxer in Tyson Fury). But Audi's story is hopefully not over in racing yet...

[Hawkwood]

Any chance of Joest running an Audi or two at Le Mans next year on a privateer basis?

In all likelihood no, but we can hope!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

End of an era. Sad times. Losing Audi from P1 is like losing Corvette from GT racing. They'll be missed.

Shame that the road car division making that bad call will have an effect on Le Mans.

It's not good news. Unfortunately, I think having one of the big and long term manufacturers leaving the WEC, will diminish the series.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Murphy recently suggested Audi might leave prototype racing:

After 11k posts and 6 years

I'll miss them a lot, let's see if someone fills that gap and all the personnel ( staff and contractors ) find a job soon.

[TF110]

I'm a Toyota fan first, but I appreciate Audi's efforts and their competition. I didn't like diesel, didn't like they had f1-level budgets, but this is sad news. The only positive thing to this imo is it's one less team Toyota has to worry about beating to get a win at Le Mans. But that's not what I prefer and no doubt it's not what they prefer. But at least they're continuing on against the best in Porsche.

Two car battles have been great before in ilmc and the first two years of the wec. I don't see the demise of lmp1 or the wec at all. I feel the opposite. The big spender has now left. Better for the others to join now while the fruit is ripe for the picking.

So long Audi. Have fun in Formula E. But you're definitely not going to have the same following as the wec.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Wouldn't that be a short turnaround, from the end of this years WEC till Silverstone next year? I doubt they took any part in the testing of the car or started integrating the team into the Porsche GTE structure(maybe they did behind closed doors). Also Audi's decision seems to have been a fairly recent one so Joest might not have had the chance to plan for the future. Anyway this is an Audi thread and not a Joest Future thread so I'll try not to stray off topic.

The only thing that would change would be uniforms, the car and some equipment.

This decision has been known for some time. It wasn't made last week.

[bobec]

"Audi denied a report in Germany's Handelsblatt newspaper that savings from pulling out of Le Mans and the World Endurance Championship (WEC) would amount to an annual 300 million euros ($328 million). A source at Audi said the move would save Audi nearly 100 million euros per year"


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...-idUSKCN12Q16P

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

Two car battles have been great before in ilmc and the first two years of the wec. I don't see the demise of lmp1 or the wec at all. I feel the opposite. The big spender has now left. Better for the others to join now while the fruit is ripe for the picking.

So where's the Marshall Pruett article you can reference for Porsche's budget being significantly less than Audi's? Because everything I've seen and heard suggests that Porsche's budget is much closer to Audi's than Toyota's. The biggest spender has left, but there's still a very big spender there.

Originally Posted by bavila

Audi's always been a class act team, and professional through and through, but it doesn't change the fact that they really needed more level competition to truly be regarded as legendary. And regardless of the team, I don't like to see anyone leave on a losing note. In the end, it does make more sense for Porsche to remain (between the two of them), as they're 'fresher' on the scene.

Generally speaking, there's only one winner in a competition. Therefore it's much more common to see people/teams go out when they are losing rather than winning (which is why those who do leave with a victory or title stick in our minds more). I appreciate that you're definitely not a "hater" from your posts subsequent to the first one you made after the announcement, but I still think your assertion is neither fair nor reasonable.

While I also I wouldn't call Audi "legendary" based solely on their efforts, the same argument could be made for Porsche seeing as a few of their victories came up against little/no external competition ... if you don't mind the off-topic question, would you also not regard Porsche as legendary for the same reason, or does the greater number of victories (or anything else) swing it for you?

[bobec]

Originally Posted by bavila

Again, no hate here whatsoever for Audi. I was one of the few (and i mean FEW) fans showing up to the ALMS races all over the country in the early 2000's, and even had the pleasure of racing with them in some the charity karting runs (San Jose was a blast! I came in 6th overall, beating out 12 other pro's, but of course, it was mostly due to a shady yellow flag where Frank Biela didn't slow down appropriately in front of me, so I followed suit!).

Audi's always been a class act team, and professional through and through, but it doesn't change the fact that they really needed more level competition to truly be regarded as legendary. And regardless of the team, I don't like to see anyone leave on a losing note. In the end, it does make more sense for Porsche to remain (between the two of them), as they're 'fresher' on the scene.

That must have been a pretty cool experience with the karting runs.

Audi had a strong run and supported the sport. You can't hold their withdrawal against them. I agree it makes more sense for Porsche to stay, but that also has to do with the regulations. It has been widely discussed, and it makes no sense for VW Group to have two brands wit the same concept racing in the WEC. Both the regulations and the consequence of dieselgate favor the concept used by Porsche.

Competition has also been discussed a lot. Audi came to LM when the field was very competitive, and they managed a podium. The next few years they won comfortably, but again, you can't hold their commitment against them, if their competition was not as committed as them, and also for BMW, Toyota and Mercedes abandoning LM after 1999.
I would say starting with 2007 there were some amazing battles and competition was strong. You can see in the regulations and recent race results that it makes no sense to use a diesel in LMP1-H (past 2013). Why should Audi stick around and mess with some crazy aero in order to keep losing races in the pits and on strategy, because of the EoT, and that after VAG's ambition to move away from diesel? This is absolutely the right decision, except I think it should have happened after 2017.

I don't understand the bitterness. If you think Audi is so unimportant and over-hyped, then you should be happy. You could also say Peugeot left on a losing note, but for me that's not what comes to mind when I hear Peugeot and LM together. I think of the amazing battles and interesting races.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

The big spender has now left. Better for the others to join now while the fruit is ripe for the picking

Or maybe in a sense the biggest patron has left.

Still unclear about the budget. It is claimed Audi will save EUR 100 million, whatever that means (from switching from WEC to FE, I guess)

[gert]

As for the drivers, Endurance-Info put up some thoughts about the drivers:
* Duval and di Grassi -> Formula E (as before)
* Lotterer -> Super Formula (as before) + Super GT (?)
* Tréluyer -> ditto (only the Super GT part I think)
* Fässler and Rockenfeller -> GT (since they did a few races for Corvette this year)
* Rast -> DTM (replacing Timo Scheider)
* L. Vanthoor -> Porsche GTE

* no mention abut Jarvis


I'm a bit surprised Rockenfeller and Vanthoor are mentioned, since their programmes are not affected?

[bobec]

Originally Posted by bavila

I agree it may have ruined his potential. But that's my point: just remaining in the series doesn't make one great. Don't get me wrong, he was still competing at a level most of us can never experience, but based on his potential, I just can't vote him into the F1 Hall of Fame.

The comparison to Audi is similar: they remained (and mostly won) in the LM/ALMS/WEC for a long time, but based on their level of competition most years (again, not their fault!), I can't call them legendary. Like Wlad Klitschko in HW boxing: he won for many years, which was good, but when he fought top level comp, his record is not so impressive (and he more or less went out on a losing note to a not so skilled boxer in Tyson Fury). But Audi's story is hopefully not over in racing yet...

Again, Rubens is not in the Hall of Fame, but Audi is! So it's odd that you compare Audi to someone who won a handful of races. It's kinda odd comparing a team and its legacy to that of a driver and their legacy (or to a boxer).

Do you think the Mazda 787B is legendary? Why should it not be? Maybe Mazda is not legendary, but the 787B is?
What about Michael Schumacher? Why can't I claim he wasn't legendary, since he didn't face enough competition (and lost when he did)?

I wouldn't claim Schumacher is the best driver ever, but I will never deny that he is a legend (I'm personally not a very big fan, though I wish him a full recovery). The same way, no one is claiming Audi were the greatest of all time. But they clearly are one of the greatest LM legends because of what they did at LM, not just because of hanging around. And they have enough prototypes that are legendary - R8, R10, maybe not so much the R15, but definitely the pre-2016 R18.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by gert

As for the drivers, Endurance-Info put up some thoughts about the drivers:
* Duval and di Grassi -> Formula E (as before)
* Lotterer -> Super Formula (as before) + Super GT (?)
* Tréluyer -> ditto (only the Super GT part I think)
* Fässler and Rockenfeller -> GT (since they did a few races for Corvette this year)
* Rast -> DTM (replacing Timo Scheider)
* L. Vanthoor -> Porsche GTE

* no mention abut Jarvis


I'm a bit surprised Rockenfeller and Vanthoor are mentioned, since their programmes are not affected?

Someone posted an interview with Jarvis earlier in this thread where he says that he's not got anything on the table yet, having been taken by surprise himself at the windup coming this year rather than next.

Rockenfeller is a bit of a surprise seeing as he's still a front-line DTM driver, but it's no secret that Vanthoor was going to be the next big thing for Audi's LMP1 driver lineup and Audi were keen for him to not go the same way as Tincknell. GT3 (+ WRT LMP2?) might be enough to keep him satisfied, but if he wants to drive in LMP1 in the near future he will need to switch. What better way for Porsche to relaunch their GTE efforts than to take arguably Audi's best GT driver?

[gert]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Someone posted an interview with Jarvis earlier in this thread where he says that he's not got anything on the table yet, having been taken by surprise himself at the windup coming this year rather than next.

I see, but that makes the Vanthoor situation even more confusing.
If Jarvis - as one of the affected drivers - didn't know and doesn't have a plan B at this moment, then why would Vanthoor?
Unless he knew Audi LMP wasn't going to happen for him anyway? Only 2 cars at Le Mans, no definite programme post 2017, Rast in the picking order before him?

But of course, these are just the thoughts of the writer of that article...

... Of course, good for Porsche if they can take him. They may have a seat to fill if Bamber or Tandy gets promoted, although I would have thought they have more than enough drivers already.
Then again, an opportunity to sign Vanthoor may be too good to miss.

We'll see.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Any chance of Joest running an Audi or two at Le Mans next year on a privateer basis?

In all likelihood no, but we can hope!

That would be cool. Even a pure, non-hybrid diesel version of the R18. Anything would be better than the car going to waste.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I agree that Porsche would not race unless they had someone to race against.

As far as Le Mans goes, I doubt trucking a car to Joest and giving them some powertrain engineers is a bad deal in exchange for padding their overall win stats, if it comes to that. Shouldn't cost that much just to run the car if there's no major competition.

WEC becomes iffy because of the logistics and expense of airlifting batteries all over the place though.

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Well. Manthey is out of the factory GTE program and they will need someone to run the WEC for the new 991 next season.

Seems to me that Joest Porsche is probably back.

Where is this coming from? Both Manthey and CORE's contracts were renewed during Le Mans weekend.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Any chance of Joest running an Audi or two at Le Mans next year on a privateer basis?

In all likelihood no, but we can hope!

I doubt it.

All manufacturer's have claimed the cars are far too complicated and far too expensive to be run by a privateer.
I doubt they would change their mind now.

If it doesn't make sense, Joest won't do it.
(And I'm sure, he is one of the few who knows if it is feasible for a privateer or not)

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by gert

Good post.

As you say, Vanthoor was always second to Rast (which IIRC caused a bit of friction between them), so if Rene wasn't close to an LMP1 drive then Laurens would only be further away. He would have been keeping an eye elsewhere anyway, whereas the full-season drivers were safe in their seats for the time being.

Also, I think Vanthoor is one of the 3 drivers that would be "too good to pass up," alongside Rast (who is spoken for) and Lotterer.

Edit - The privateer R18 is a non-starter; for starters, think of the resources needed just to redesign the brakes to take the increased loads and the knock-on effect on the aerodynamics.

[bavila]

Originally Posted by bobec

Again, Rubens is not in the Hall of Fame, but Audi is! So it's odd that you compare Audi to someone who won a handful of races. It's kinda odd comparing a team and its legacy to that of a driver and their legacy (or to a boxer).

Do you think the Mazda 787B is legendary? Why should it not be? Maybe Mazda is not legendary, but the 787B is?
What about Michael Schumacher? Why can't I claim he wasn't legendary, since he didn't face enough competition (and lost when he did)?

I wouldn't claim Schumacher is the best driver ever, but I will never deny that he is a legend (I'm personally not a very big fan, though I wish him a full recovery). The same way, no one is claiming Audi were the greatest of all time. But they clearly are one of the greatest LM legends because of what they did at LM, not just because of hanging around. And they have enough prototypes that are legendary - R8, R10, maybe not so much the R15, but definitely the pre-2016 R18.

Good points, but again, these are my opinions, based on how i've viewed racing since the late 70s. Doesn't mean you have to agree. Regarding Peugeot, I also enjoyed their racing effort a few years back, but I also was super frustrated when they left (on a losing note). I give them the same negative marks that I apply to Audi. Why I'm still optimistic is based on the Audi/Peugeot battles (2 teams, basically). I believe Porsche and Toyota can keep it very exciting over the next few years.

I didn't want to talk about Schumi, but I apply the same standards to him (also wish him well in his recovery). With a great car/team, he was always going to win as much as he did. Pound for pound, I don't know that I can call him a legend (my evaluation). But did he do impressive things for the team and fans? Certainly.

[tigas]

Originally Posted by gert

As for the drivers, Endurance-Info put up some thoughts about the drivers:
* Duval and di Grassi -> Formula E (as before)
* Lotterer -> Super Formula (as before) + Super GT (?)
* Tréluyer -> ditto (only the Super GT part I think)
* Fässler and Rockenfeller -> GT (since they did a few races for Corvette this year)
* Rast -> DTM (replacing Timo Scheider)
* L. Vanthoor -> Porsche GTE

* no mention abut Jarvis


I'm a bit surprised Rockenfeller and Vanthoor are mentioned, since their programmes are not affected?

Any news about Filipe Albuquerque?

[maximus]

Such a shame to hear they are pulling out, I think the emissions scandal has hurt them badly, compounded with Porsche beating them. I'll be sorry to hear them go and can only hope another manufacturer will fill the void!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

So where's the Marshall Pruett article you can reference for Porsche's budget being significantly less than Audi's? Because everything I've seen and heard suggests that Porsche's budget is much closer to Audi's than Toyota's. The biggest spender has left, but there's still a very big spender there.

Audi has/had a budget over $200million. We know Porsche outspend Toyota, but by a factor of nearly 3? I think a big difference is that Porsche can do a lot of in-house work. Toyota can do 80-90% in house. Audi maybe did less and stuff like out-sourcing and contracting and the battery/hybrid deal took a lot of budget.

Note that the news pieces say Audi will save around $300million a year, but they say closer to $100million. Well, they're keeping everyone onboard and not completely shutting down. Plus they're going to expand their F-E project. So it seems like they did have quite the expense if you can do all that and still save $100million!

Originally Posted by maximus

Such a shame to hear they are pulling out, I think the emissions scandal has hurt them badly, compounded with Porsche beating them. I'll be sorry to hear them go and can only hope another manufacturer will fill the void!

Yes, I think Peugeot, BMW, Honda etc. are more likely now. They're bargaining chips are going to be bigger because the ACO are in a predicament having lost Audi, that they want to appease these guys to join.

[maximus]

I'm surprised BMW hasn't joined yet, I've heard Peugeot making noises, are they still just toying with the idea?