Sinister Implications Of Team Orders

[Valve Bounce]

The Bernoldi drive at Monaco has suddenly brought to the fore the SINISTER implications of team orders. John Toad has stated clearly that the two other teams supplied with Ferrari engines, eg. Sauber and Prost, would be required to follow certain (unamed) agreements. It is not inconceivable cars from one of these teams could somehow end up ahead of cars battling for the lead after the refuel stop, particularly if a safety car has come out during the course of the race and the field has bunched up.
We all agree that overtaking is not impossible, and we all agree that overtaking can be difficult if the cars have approximately the same power in their engines. (Let's forget about Monaco for the time being). This then gives a team like Ferrari the luxury of potentially 5 cars which can do some sort of blockinng to help TGF win a race, let alone pull over to let him ahead while blocking the opposition. Let's forget Mclaren and Ron Dennis for the time being because there is absolutely no simpathy in this forum for him at the moment. It could be Williams, Jaguar (avec Newey) Renault (with all 10 cylinders) Bar or Jordan (with powerful Hondas) and even Minardi (with a miracle) that can be affected in a race.
Now that I have explained the problem, I leave you guys to consider the solutions. Half the forum here has already supported racing ( I call it blocking)for position even when one car is obviously slower than the other, but combine that with Sinister team orders, and that could make everyone here reconsider what they really want to see in a race: a real RACE for position, or a BLOCK UNDER TEAM ORDERS to maintain position, while implementing Liz's Affirmative Action.
Please keep this a friendly discussion.

[JeremySmith]

Therefor I take it that you are suggestion that because Ferrari supply teams with their engines that they (Ferrari) are able to LEAN on other teams to hold up their main rivals(McLaren) during races..Am I on the same wavelength as you Valve?

[Gt_R]

ha!I bet anti-ferrari people would grab this chance and throw in all conspiracy plans at Ferrari. =)

But let me explain what is going on.
Ferrari provides 2 teams with engines. What does this benefit them?

Firstly, monetary gains, for they earn even more money to finance their work team. Remember, the Ferrari year-old engines are the most expensive customer engine in F1.

But for a team where money do not seem to be a barrier, there are political reasons behind too.
Todt has openly admitted that Prost and Sauber are submitted to certain agreements. For example, when teams meet to discuss a new idea being implemented in F1 (technical or not), Prost and Sauber should not go against Ferrari's wishes ie. The implementation of Traction Control delayed till Spain.

However, this is as far as agreements go. At no point of time in the contract are Prost and Sauber made to (a)hand over their team developement/data/secrets to Ferrari and (b)move over when Ferrari is fighting for positions with them and (c)block Ferrari's main rival (no matter if being lapped or not) and hamper the rival ieMclaren's progress.

The contract has political issues involved...but at no point of time is unfair competition included...(sorry to ferrari critics...i wouldnt buy any of the bulls you throw later on in this thread)

BUT, what Ferrari benefits is that when Prost and Sauber is being lapped by their own, P & S would take extra care not to hamper the scarlet cars...and put in more effort to get out of the way. And when a Ferrari is vying with them for position. They would fight for their place, but the drivers would be told not to risk taking the Ferrari out...in short, battle for it within limits, but if the Ferrari is too quick or is making an agressive overtaking move, do not risk blocking and take him out.

Before critics come and blast Ferrari for this, let me remind you, that this is not ordered by the Ferrari camp, but is plain goodwill shown by the P and S team. Ferrari did not supply engines just to make their job on the track easier, nor hamper their opponents. That P and S chooses to do what they did.

See...You work for Boss Sim, the only boss in the whole world who is willing to provide you with work, income and shelter. he made you able to survive in the fast paced society. All he ask in return is you to promote his company's name/goods. He did not tell you to sabotage rival company's goods or burn down your rivals factory. In gratitude, when you see him walk towards you in the opposite direction in a narrow pathway, you kindly step aside to let him pass, careful not to knock into him. Its not in the work contract you cant knock into him, but u choose not too...
Similarly, thats the case of the contract between Prost/Sauber and Ferrari.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Jersound
Therefor I take it that you are suggestion that because Ferrari supply teams with their engines that they (Ferrari) are able to LEAN on other teams to hold up their main rivals(McLaren) during races..Am I on the same wavelength as you Valve?

Remember Eddie was under team orders to specifically hold Jacques up. This doesn't have to be Mclaren (who at the moment are not everybody's fav because of Ron Dennis) - it could be Williams or any of the other teams I have mentioned.
You can also take an extension to this scenario, where another team supplying engines to Minardi or Arrows can then ask these teams to do likewise. I am concerned that F1 could degenerate into dirty team tactics with the advent of Sinister team orders.

[Red]

Well Mr. Bounce, one can sell several more pieces of paper by publishing such a scenario but since we’re not journalists let’s not make such a big drama. I believe that Gt_R’s scenario is closer to reality than yours. Anyway, let’s try to see the whole doughnut not only the hole.

Allow me to go a little off topic. Firstly, it is Jean Todt please. Secondly. You used “Eddie against Jacques” on several occasions. Could you be a little bit more specific? I can only think of one race in which Eddie was in front of Jacques, that was Suzuka. And if I’m not completely mistaking, Eddie got a 20 seconds lead in a matter of a couple of laps. To be more specific, Jacques was holding the entire grid (bar Eddie who got away quickly), hoping that everybody will pass Schumacher (he already knew he was racing for nothing, remember?) Oh yes, in the end Eddie tried to hold Frenzy, not very successful though.

Now back to topic. Interesting stuff. You are basically saying that a championship contender can be blocked by a midfield car. Now, that next-best-driver-in-the-best-car-available pretends he can overtake Schumacher for example in a fair and square fight????????? And expect me to believe that? To be a real mean guy, I say that I have no sympathy for a driver complaining about backmarkers. By the way, does anyone remember Suzuka 1999? You don’t need a second team to do such actions....

[Liz]

I think some people have been watching too many Godfather movies.

I seem to recall Damon Hill holding TGF behind him for quite a number of laps (no love lost there, of course) as did and does Jacques whenever he can (ditto). And of course it is understood that one of the main purposes of the Lap Dog No. 2 is to block for WDC In Waiting No. 1, as far as it is legal for him to do so - and a little farther if he thinks he can.

That being said, I immersed myself in the politics of the Senna/Prost War (okay, Prost was the most political of political animals toward the end, I admit it) and the more recent Jacques/Zonta War, and anyone who thinks "politics" is both a dirty word and all you can see on the surface is living on Fantasy Island. The world is run on Trade Lasts and in order to succeed it's a game you have to learn to play. Don't kid yourselves that Prost and Peter Sauber are Jean Todt's tame lap dogs. I'm sure they are getting quid pro quo besides their engine deals that satisfies them both.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Gt_R
ha!I bet anti-ferrari people would grab this chance and throw in all conspiracy plans at Ferrari. =)

However, this is as far as agreements go. At no point of time in the contract are Prost and Sauber made to (a)hand over their team developement/data/secrets to Ferrari and (b)move over when Ferrari is fighting for positions with them and (c)block Ferrari's main rival (no matter if being lapped or not) and hamper the rival ieMclaren's progress.

OK. I have to disagree with you on (b) and (c). If TGF was behind one of the Prosts or Saubers at Monaco last week, I honestly cannot believe that the Ferrari would have been deliberately blocked for 40 laps.

The contract has political issues involved...but at no point of time is unfair competition included...(sorry to ferrari critics...i wouldnt buy any of the bulls you throw later on in this thread)

BUT, what Ferrari benefits is that when Prost and Sauber is being lapped by their own, P & S would take extra care not to hamper the scarlet cars...and put in more effort to get out of the way. And when a Ferrari is vying with them for position. They would fight for their place, but the drivers would be told not to risk taking the Ferrari out...in short, battle for it within limits, but if the Ferrari is too quick or is making an agressive overtaking move, do not risk blocking and take him out.

As I said before, Eddie stated quite openly that he was going to make life a misery for Jacques, and he blatantly blocked him after letting TGF past.

Now to answer Red, let me explain how easy it is for slower cars to get in front of leading cars. The slower car is on a two stopper - just after his first stop the safety car comes out after some prang on track, so the field bunches up. The faster car then goes in for his pit stop and he is passed by the two stopper. The two stopper then blocks him as they are "fighting for position" while his team mate, engine mate, call it what you like heads off into the distance. The other way teh slower can psas a faster car is quite simple:when the faster car makes an off course excursion like TGF did a couple of races ago.

Please remember that John Toad did not state what the other agreements are. If he marches into Prost's or Sauber's pit and suggests they allow TGF to pass (NOT lap) without blocking, I honestly cannot see Sauber or Prost refuse. And please don't tell me that John Toad is not beyond such tactics. If Mercedes were to supply engines to Minardi for example, I am sure that Ron dennis would do likewise.

[laxman]

Please remember that John Toad did not state what the other agreements are. If he marches into Prost's or Sauber's pit and suggests they allow TGF to pass (NOT lap) without blocking, I honestly cannot see Sauber or Prost refuse. And please don't tell me that John Toad is not beyond such tactics. If Mercedes were to supply engines to Minardi for example, I am sure that Ron dennis would do likewise.

agreed bouncey,but has he done it yet??
NO.
we cannot judge him by our perception of what he may or maynot do.

Anyway,I think the main reason for this thread is not the jacques/MS incident but the coulthard/bernoldi(or however you spell it) one.Frankly,i cannot believe that some of the people here are actually suggesting that he should have let DC past because he didnt have the faster car.What if TGF was in second place behind coulthard in a faster car.Should coulthard have allowed him through??? I think its time for the black pot and kettle!!!(god! I still dont know what that actually means.Wrex!!HElp!!)
Anyways,coming back to the topic,Dc couldnt pass him because he wasnt agressive enough.How long was he out before he came in to the pits?It just shows that he was running a very lean fuel mixture when he was behing him.I think that its fair to say that if TGF was in coulthard's place,he would be running the godzilla of rich fuel mixtures and try to get past him in 5 laps....and he probably would have.Dc on the other hand went for plan B and decided to stay behind him and wait for him to make a mistake.Unforyunately for him,bernoldi dindt and he was stuck behing him till th epit stops.It was his choice and rightly,immediately after the race,he had no complaints.Its only because his foolish(and thats using a very mild word) bosses decided to attack bernoldi that he joined in.

so there you have it.Nothing illegal,nothing immoral,plain racing and Dc sucks(oops! )

[Valve Bounce]

NO!! The reason for this thead is, as the title states quite clearly, the sinister implications of team orders.
The Bernoldi block against DC is discussed in my other thread.

[Red]

Of course Jean Todt did not state what the agreements are! Are you kidding me? Did such a thing ever happen? The contracts are secret you know... On the other hand, such moves were very possible before and are still now. Driver’s friendship or aversions, team’s alliances, whatever. What’s the big deal? The fact that Ferrari supplies two other teams with engines? I really can’t remember when Prost rejected Mercedes’ offer

Valve Bounce, the situation you described is indeed very interesting. And certainly very possible. However it implies too many picnics and safety cars to be relevant. I believe you missed my point. A driver who repeatedly spins into gravel or a car who repeatedly stalls on grid are not worthy champions. And if they repeatedly find themselves behind average cars and rookies and they find impossible to overtake, well, I’m not terribly sorry for them.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Red


Valve Bounce, the situation you described is indeed very interesting. And certainly very possible. However it implies too many picnics and safety cars to be relevant. I believe you missed my point. A driver who repeatedly spins into gravel or a car who repeatedly stalls on grid are not worthy champions. And if they repeatedly find themselves behind average cars and rookies and they find impossible to overtake, well, I’m not terribly sorry for them.

Red, TGf drove off the road in Malaysia and also when JPM ran him wide a couple of races ago, and he did, indeed, get such assistance in coming back to the front. Just ask Liz. I'm not sorry for TGF either, but the field parted so that he could get back to the front. Remember the Sauber driver who let him past without any fuss?
As for the picnics and safety cars you refer to, remember Mika racing for position with Mazza last year? This is exactly how it happened. The safety car syndrome happens too often, when a leader loses the precious lead he has built up just because someone has a prang, and the bloody safet car comes out. The field bunches up.

[Red]

Of course I remember. But in Malaysia both Ferraris flew past McLarens as well. Meaning? Indeed Schumacher did not need too much to overtake Kimi, but is it necessary to assume an intra-teams order? Almost forgot, that would be only the "let go quickly" part of the agreement.

About Mika/Gaston situation. That was not a one of those unfortunately too often SC syndrome. Just McLaren blowing the strategy away.

[laxman]

NO!! The reason for this thead is, as the title states quite clearly, the sinister implications of team orders.

The Bernoldi drive at Monaco has suddenly brought to the fore the SINISTER implications of team orders

need i say more?

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by laxman

need i say more?

Not really!!
I merely directed you to the other thread where we have all been discussing the Bernoldi drive at Monaco with David Coulthard unable to pass. However, if you feel the need not to say more, then that is your choice. That thread has already had 204 posts, so the subject has already been discussed at great length.

[Gt_R]

Sorry..just went on a short holiday!

Time to reply, starting from the newest.

Point 1:
From VB " TGf drove off the road in Malaysia and also when JPM ran him wide a couple of races ago, and he did, indeed, get such assistance in coming back to the front. Just ask Liz. I'm not sorry for TGF either, but the field parted so that he could get back to the front. Remember the Sauber driver who let him past without any fuss?"

Response:
TGF slid off...so did Rubens (who was next) same place and time , Something must be wrong beyond his control...so what is it? remember that TGF is the first of the cars to enter that corner...the rain did not come yet...so... Look back to a previous lap...Oh...Panis blew his engine and left petrol at that corner..and no one cleaned it up...no warning flags were shown...and Michael on a fast one into the corner...slids on the petrol...Not his fault...then
And if you think that the field parted for TGF...because of Saube..please...look at Brazil and you would realise that 1/2 of the drivers on the grid do not make attempts to fight for the place like JPM and Michael does...


Point 2:
Frm VB
OK. I have to disagree with you on (b) and (c). If TGF was behind one of the Prosts or Saubers at Monaco last week, I honestly cannot believe that the Ferrari would have been deliberately blocked for 40 laps.

Response.
This discussion is whether Ferrari is supplying two other teams to benefit themselves during the race.
First, i would like to point out that Enrique did NOT deliberately block DC. Arrows is a backfielder...and it is naturally slower than the pace setting Mclaren and Ferrari. But, Enrique did not purposely slow down just to hold back DC for THAT 40 laps. He was fighting for position, and DC, lost time behind the Arrows.
So after this clarification, i would say that i doubt that MS would face such defensive driving from the Prosts and Sauber in a similar circumstance. most probably he would be let through after a few laps. BUT the point is that FERRARI DID NOT ORDER PROST AND SAUBER TO MOVE OFF...its Prost and Sauber who would tell their driver to not hold up the Ferrari... and its purely Prost and Sauber who chose to...not something stated in the agreement. Get the point?


Point 3:
And about Eddie holding up JV.
Firstly, it is not appropriate here as firstly, Eddie is a FERRARI WORKS team driver, and his contract do state that he have to help MS. Next, he is on the same lap, very much within his rights to do so.
Now, if you are bringing in the implication of team orders...look at DC, he is a lap down on MS in Suzuka 1999, yet, when MS came to lap him, he clearly blocked the Ferrari by weaving, holding him up for a vital 4s... sure...MS might not be able to win from Mika in that race, but DC is being lapped, and what he did from order of Ron Dennis is what i called Unsporting AND AGAINST the rules...

[Nuvolari]

I don't often agree with her, but I think Liz is on the money here. The suggestion there may have been collusion to aid Ferrari is over the top.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Gt_R

Now, if you are bringing in the implication of team orders...look at DC, he is a lap down on MS in Suzuka 1999, yet, when MS came to lap him, he clearly blocked the Ferrari by weaving, holding him up for a vital 4s... sure...MS might not be able to win from Mika in that race, but DC is being lapped, and what he did from order of Ron Dennis is what i called Unsporting AND AGAINST the rules...

I totally agree with you. This is the point of this thread.

[Gt_R]

haha...okay...

...i was expecting some arguments though :P

Have a nice day!