[LM24] Audi at the 24 Hours in 2009

[sssssssss]

This is one of the very biggest questions for Le Mans 2009: what will Audi do? What kind of a prototype will they bring? What kind of new solutions will they involve?
As far as I know, they promised they will have their press conference in September - namely this month, for those who had any doubts about it (me included here!) - where they'll publically tell what they're up to for 2009... which I'm really looking forward to.
So, this is where I invite you all to post any news on the subject; in particular, I am totally anxious to FINALLY find out what they will do, after all these months of waiting secrecy.

[JAG]

Petrol hybrid Coupe P1....................I think!

[zac510]

Too late for any 2009 hybrid rules Knighty.

No doubt it'll be a diesel again. General opinion seems to be that it will be a coupe, too, but we'll have to wait to find out.

Their words after Le Mans that this year will probably be the R10's last seems to hint that they have found a weakness in its chassis and no more speed can be forthcoming and a new chassis might overcome that.

Seems likely, it being the first diesel chassis and they were forging through unknown territory. It may have an incurable weight imbalance or maybe simply the aero difference of the coupe has not been recognised until this year.

[JAG]

Corsa's new Zytek is a hybrid, while Peugeot reportedly have one in the works.

[zac510]

I'm not doubting the ability of them to produce a hybrid but it just would seem unlikely that the ACO would announce a special hybrid rule which is also loose enough to allow Peugeot or Audi to win outright, in September 9 months before the race! However a hybrid rule that won't win outright but will provide a good demonstration might be possible!

[deggis]

Coupe is contradictory to what Ullrich (?) previously said.

[JAG]

He said an open car is preferable, but the performance of the 908 could have changed that.

[Nordic]

Will they build enough cars to compete in both the ALMS and LMS?

Which teams will run them, Joest I would think are certain to be involved if there is a European program, but are Audi happy with Champion in the USA?

Penske Motorsports may have time on the their hands next year if the Spyder program does end in terms of factory support and the step up to P1 with a possible return to Le Mans with a top line car would appeal to RG maybe.

Would Audi allow the old cars to be run by customer teams, not alot of hope of that I think, but there is strengh in numbers, Audis recent LM wins have proven that and the Pugs are only going to get better.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by zac510

Too late for any 2009 hybrid rules Knighty.

No doubt it'll be a diesel again. General opinion seems to be that it will be a coupe, too, but we'll have to wait to find out.

Their words after Le Mans that this year will probably be the R10's last seems to hint that they have found a weakness in its chassis and no more speed can be forthcoming and a new chassis might overcome that.

Seems likely, it being the first diesel chassis and they were forging through unknown territory. It may have an incurable weight imbalance or maybe simply the aero difference of the coupe has not been recognised until this year.

But Peugeot made it quite clear they'll have a hybrid... Maybe it doesn't take that long to put together some rules for hybrid-engined cars

I think they won't bring out a coupe, unfortunately Dr. Ullrich didn't seem very keen on the idea so far. They have all this phenomenal experience with the open cars and ultimately I don't think that having a closed car really makes that much of a difference in terms of performance; the difference between the 908 and the R10 most probably came from that chassis flaw you mentioned, which didn't happen to Peugeot. But it doesn't really have much to do with the coupe vs. open top thing - each of the two variants has its advantages and its disadvantages, and Audi had the chance of building a coupe ever since they started racing Le Mans - closed prototypes were never banned by the regs; they simply didn't want to. They built the Bentley and the car wasn't any more potent than the Audi R8 (except for the 2003 and 2005 R8, of course :P), although it was newer.

I'd love to see a Audi coupe, but it don't really see that happening...

[Fogelhund]

That the rules for hybrids aren't public, doesn't mean that the manufacturers haven't dictated to the ACO what they will be months ago.

[sssssssss]

Good point.

[FIRE]

But did Peugeot, Lola, Dome and Epsilon chose to build a coupe only for esthetic reasons? I assume not.

[zac510]

sssssss, why can't Peugeot have 2 908s and 1 908 hybrid? 2 to do the racing and 1 to do the marketing duties!

I'm sure Dr Ullrich will build whichever one's faster. There's no place for emotion in a decision like that. It'll be interesting to see how the RML car goes first time out. If a good performance jump comes from the new chassis and old suspension/engine then that would be good reason to put some of the speed down to the roof.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

But Peugeot made it quite clear they'll have a hybrid... Maybe it doesn't take that long to put together some rules for hybrid-engined cars

I think they won't bring out a coupe, unfortunately Dr. Ullrich didn't seem very keen on the idea so far. They have all this phenomenal experience with the open cars and ultimately I don't think that having a closed car really makes that much of a difference in terms of performance; the difference between the 908 and the R10 most probably came from that chassis flaw you mentioned, which didn't happen to Peugeot. But it doesn't really have much to do with the coupe vs. open top thing - each of the two variants has its advantages and its disadvantages, and Audi had the chance of building a coupe ever since they started racing Le Mans - closed prototypes were never banned by the regs; they simply didn't want to. They built the Bentley and the car wasn't any more potent than the Audi R8 (except for the 2003 and 2005 R8, of course :P), although it was newer.

I'd love to see a Audi coupe, but it don't really see that happening...

I believe in the Bentley's time coupes had to run smaller tyres which was why most people went the open route. That has now changed and they all run the same tyres

[sssssssss]

Actually yes, I think you're right. I remember even the 1999 rules were that LMGTPs should run narrower tyres than the open LMPs and still the coupes (Mercedes, Toyota - and even Audi in terms of top-end speed) seemed to be faster; and those rules for the coupes I guess indeed stayed with us in the Bentley days too... That is a point. And even so, the Bentleys were going faster in a straight line than the Audi R8s. But I can't really understand Ullrich's religious attempt to keep going for an open Audi prototype. I remember that the LMP evo rules that initally stated prototypes ought to be closed from 2010 on were actually changed "by means of Audi intervention", so to speak... It was quite obvious back then that Ullrich wanted to stay open with the future LMP. But maybe after witnessing the absolutely incredible potential of the Peugeot 908, his plans might have changed a bit.

I remember, going back to '99, that the Audi coupes were actually extremely fast in terms of sheer performance - as the drivers described them, they just had that terrible gearbox problem that made them slow down before really putting out a fast lap, and in the race, the Audi R8Cs were constantly doing laps just as fast as BMW and Mercedes, that, of course, before they had gearbox problems again. And let's not forget that car was developed in record time, there was no chance for it to finish the 24 hours. They also had similar trap speeds to Mercedes (349 km/h), which were higher than those of the BMW and only outpaced by the Toyotas. The point is, Audi may not be that bad at doing coupe LMP1s My feeling is they're simply a bit superstitious about doing open tops, after all this immense success.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by zac510

sssssss, why can't Peugeot have 2 908s and 1 908 hybrid? 2 to do the racing and 1 to do the marketing duties!

I'm sure Dr Ullrich will build whichever one's faster. There's no place for emotion in a decision like that. It'll be interesting to see how the RML car goes first time out. If a good performance jump comes from the new chassis and old suspension/engine then that would be good reason to put some of the speed down to the roof.

That might be an interesting strategy for Peugeot as well - but they still need hybrid rules to deal with that very one hybrid car
As far as Audi are concerned, it seems to me that after 8 full years of almost non-stop success, no matter who the opponents were (except for the 2008 LMS, of course), there really is a bit of an emotional decision to be made too... and usually, if you ask people that are great at what they're doing, they usually are very superstitious. Ullrich might just have that kind of a thing with the open top cars

[zac510]

We're getting OT, but I think the quotes in this thread (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109371) clear up the doubts about seeing a hybrid at LM at least in a non-competitive capacity.

Back on topic, if the open rooved car is so valuable to Audi from the marketing perspective I wonder if they will ask for some kind of rule change for open top cars, ie bigger restrictor for non-air con cars.

[sssssssss]

That might also be an option... yet another similarity to 1999 It seems to me that the 2009 edition will somewhat resemble the 1999 one, because for sure, if the ACO reduce the downforce of the cars, Peugeot and Audi will tend to rely more on top speed than what they've done so far, also the different rumors about other manufacturers coming to LM reminds me of that dream-lineup of '99, and this kind of a rule change would also sound like '99. I'd like to see the open and the closed cars get even again Although for Audi, I'd prefer a coupe, after all these years of open tops, which have kind of become a cliche for Audi and boredom for us - especially because Audi usually design absolutely beautiful coupes (think only '99 R8C, for instance ).

[Aysedasi]

Put rooves on 'em all - I'm sick to the back teeth with dull open cars......

[sssssssss]

Acutally I remember when the Ferrari 333 SP came out my impression was that the new open tops were absolutely savage looking, I really liked them. Then also the BMW V12 LMR and the Audi R8R were very nice looking cars. It's just that at this point they really became boring to my (/our) eyes. And also the R10 (except from looking at it from the front ) is clearly a rather boring design among open tops as well, and it also became a trend setter...

[cmk]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

That might be an interesting strategy for Peugeot as well - but they still need hybrid rules to deal with that very one hybrid car
As far as Audi are concerned, it seems to me that after 8 full years of almost non-stop success, no matter who the opponents were (except for the 2008 LMS, of course), there really is a bit of an emotional decision to be made too... and usually, if you ask people that are great at what they're doing, they usually are very superstitious. Ullrich might just have that kind of a thing with the open top cars

What was that again about the 2008 LMS?!

Besides some of the inherent issues with ease of working ont he car, I wonder what the reason for Audi's steadfast adherence to the open car is? Is it something to do with actually preferring the distance the open top gives the race car from the customer cars? Do they enjoy the technology demonstrator look for 'Truth in Engineering'? I would like to see them do a coupe, since that is the coming thing right now, but I expect I'll be wowed by the R15 no matter what. Audi hasn't beat all comers for 8 years without knowing how to build an amazing racecar.

[sssssssss]

Well, I suppose I have to take back even the 2008 LMS remark

For sure, Audi ONLY builds great racecars, it's just that I'd rather like to see a coupe. Like I already stated, open top Audi LMPs really became a bit boring to my eye.

However, the R10 was only theoretically a car with the normal Audi LMP potential for its time, because they actually built it with that impossible-to-fix-chassis flaw that made the Peugeot 908 so much faster in 2008. Without that, my guess is that the R10 would've been at least at the same level of performance as the Peugeot and with a more economical engine (the difference from 2007 would have approximately stayed with us) and they would have sent the R10 to the museum with even more tears than what they did with the R8. But then again, you cannot blame Peugeot for the R10's chassis flaw, without which it would have been the fastest car of the field. It's Audi missing something essential this very rare time, and that really means... history!

[JAG]

For once I'd like to see an Audi that stirs the emotions like the Quattro S1, IMSA GTO or indeed R8C.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by JAG

For once I'd like to see an Audi that stirs the emotions like the Quattro S1, IMSA GTO or indeed R8C.

The last year has shown that the R15 won't have its competition life quite so easy so no doubt it will win some hearts if not endurance races

[FIRE]

Audi will supply engines to the new FIA Formula 2 Championship:

...
MSV has commissioned WilliamsF1 to design the car, which will incorporate a turbocharged 1.8 litre Audi engine and be built to Formula One-level safety standards. The first prototype car is on schedule for its testing debut in November 2008, with the Championship due to start in May 2009 and comprising 16 races over eight events. Performance levels will be between Formula Three and Formula One and the cost per competing driver will be less than €250,000.
...

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...mpionship.aspx