Tecno PA123

[rogerwills]

I took a look at ORC (the bible as far as F1 chassis numbers are concerned!) and in 1972 there were 3 Tecno F1 chassis out there - PA123/1, PA123/2 and PA123/5.

In 1973, there was another one car - PA123/6.

Firstly, any idea why there was a skip in chassis numbers with 3 and 4 missed? Or were perhaps these chassis run in a different spec and maybe therefore different formula?

I'm sure there is a good explaination of this and we all know the fun and games that went on with chassis numbers for many reasons (tax, etc) but having a brief look around this is one I just don't understand. I'm sure, as always, this is the place to find the answer.

Roger

[allenbrown]

Tecno numbering was always a bit of a mystery - for Tecno as well as for everyone else.

They started 1972 with a car called To/01 or T/001 or the now favoured PA123/1. To be honest, the PA123 model number has been adopted by historians to shoehorn Tecno into the normal structure of constructor/model/chassis that everyone else uses most of the time. So Maserati/250F/2513 or Lotus/72/R4. I don't think Tecno had allocated a model number to their F1 car any more than they had allocated model numbers to their F3 or F2 cars.

So after T/001 was destroyed at its first race, T/002 took its place until the team expanded to two cars at Monza with the introduction of T/005. There was no explanation at the time of where T/003 and T/004 had gone.

This is all on ORC's Tecno history page if anyone wants more detail.

IIRC, Tecno weren't producing cars for F2 or F3 any more so I doubt if they were built for other formulae.

In 1973, Tecno produced a new model which they called the PA123 but the car had a chassis number of 06, implying that the previous year's cars were also PA123s. I have always regarded the 1973 car as a separate model. There was also the Goral/Tecno in 1973 of course but that had a model number of E731.

By the way, I was sent a picture of the 1973 PA123/6 in storage a few days ago. It appears to be in pretty good condition. I recall seeing a F1 Tecno at Goodwood recently but that was a 1972 car wasn't it?

[rogerwills]

I saw that Tecno at FOS as well. I have a photo of it and it had the FOS entry number 126 on it. I wonder if anyone knows anything about the car. It had Nanni Galli's name on it and looked great. The sound of that V12 as well was brilliant.

It was this that had me look at your site yesterday for more on the cars and then the head-scratching began on the missing chassis numbers.

I wonder if chassis 3 and 4 were built and what they did?

[pedrofast]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Tecno numbering was always a bit of a mystery - for Tecno as well as for everyone else.

They started 1972 with a car called To/01 or T/001 or the now favoured PA123/1. To be honest, the PA123 model number has been adopted by historians to shoehorn Tecno into the normal structure of constructor/model/chassis that everyone else uses most of the time. So Maserati/250F/2513 or Lotus/72/R4. I don't think Tecno had allocated a model number to their F1 car any more than they had allocated model numbers to their F3 or F2 cars.

So after T/001 was destroyed at its first race, T/002 took its place until the team expanded to two cars at Monza with the introduction of T/005. There was no explanation at the time of where T/003 and T/004 had gone.

This is all on ORC's Tecno history page if anyone wants more detail.

IIRC, Tecno weren't producing cars for F2 or F3 any more so I doubt if they were built for other formulae.

In 1973, Tecno produced a new model which they called the PA123 but the car had a chassis number of 06, implying that the previous year's cars were also PA123s. I have always regarded the 1973 car as a separate model. There was also the Goral/Tecno in 1973 of course but that had a model number of E731.

By the way, I was sent a picture of the 1973 PA123/6 in storage a few days ago. It appears to be in pretty good condition. I recall seeing a F1 Tecno at Goodwood recently but that was a 1972 car wasn't it?

Referring to TECNO F1 chassis#3, I inform you where it is this car. The car is owned by the same driver NANNI GALLI, and is located in PRATO (Firenze-Italy). He bought in 2007 to the family Pederzani, that for 35 years keep at home's garage.

[pedrofast]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I saw that Tecno at FOS as well. I have a photo of it and it had the FOS entry number 126 on it. I wonder if anyone knows anything about the car. It had Nanni Galli's name on it and looked great. The sound of that V12 as well was brilliant.

It was this that had me look at your site yesterday for more on the cars and then the head-scratching began on the missing chassis numbers.

I wonder if chassis 3 and 4 were built and what they did?

NO MISTERY: the PA123/3 it was for 35 years in the house of the family PEDERZANI (Bologna-Italy), and in 2007 was soold to the same driver NANNI GALLI. Now stay in PRATO(Firenze) Italy,very well rebuilt.

[pedrofast]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I took a look at ORC (the bible as far as F1 chassis numbers are concerned!) and in 1972 there were 3 Tecno F1 chassis out there - PA123/1, PA123/2 and PA123/5.

In 1973, there was another one car - PA123/6.

Firstly, any idea why there was a skip in chassis numbers with 3 and 4 missed? Or were perhaps these chassis run in a different spec and maybe therefore different formula?

I'm sure there is a good explaination of this and we all know the fun and games that went on with chassis numbers for many reasons (tax, etc) but having a brief look around this is one I just don't understand. I'm sure, as always, this is the place to find the answer.

Roger

ANSWER FOUND: the PA123/3 it is in PRATO(Firenze)-Italy, is owned by the same driver of the '72. Completely rebuilt. Now it is on sale,f ully origin documents, ready for racing in HFO Class B.
I have pics.

[pedrofast]

This TECNO F1 PA123/4 it seems be owned by LORENZO PRANDINA (Milano-Italy).

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by pedrofast

NO MISTERY: the PA123/3 it was for 35 years in the house of the family PEDERZANI (Bologna-Italy), and in 2007 was soold to the same driver NANNI GALLI. Now stay in PRATO(Firenze) Italy,very well rebuilt.

If only it was that easy to solve a mystery!

Just because a car exists today bearing a particular chassis number, doesn't mean that it is definitely the same car that existed 30 or 40 years ago. Also, if a car exists today bearing a number that sources from 30 or 40 years ago never mentioned, we cannot take everything on trust.

As an example, there is one type of sports racing Porsche where only about six or seven were built but 12 exists today. The numbers used by the "extra" cars were unallocated at the time. One or two of the owners try to tell us that these cars are original and that they were spare cars, or test cars or development cars. They weren't - they were built in California less than ten years ago.

I am aware that Nanni Galli has a Tecno and it looks like an original car but I have no idea which one he has.

[WouterM]

In the 2006 Monaco Historic Grand Prix a PA123 was entered with a sign next to it stating it was PA123/3. It was driven by Lorenzo Prandina. The sign listed the following races for this chassis:

1972 GP Republica - Nanni Galli
1972 French Grand Prix - Derek Bell
1972 British Grand Prix - Nanni Galli
1972 German Grand Prix - Derek Bell
1972 Austrian Grand Prix - Nanni Galli
1972 Italian Grand Prix - Derek Bell
1972 Canadian Grand Prix - Derek Bell
1972 USA Grand Prix - Derek Bell

Two years later we saw a PA123 at Monaco that did not make it out on track. It was entered by Nanni Galli, had a plaque with PA123/3 in it and featured a different nose than two years earlier. It does appear to be the same car.

The above list clearly refers to the entries of all PA123s during 1972. The Grand Prix 1972 book by Ulrich Schwab does list PA123/3 as being used by Derek Bell in the German Grand Prix. No mention of PA123/4 though.

It lists:

1972 Belgian Grand Prix - Nanni Galli (PA123/1 Retired)
1972 French Grand Prix - Derek Bell (PA123/002 Non Starter)
1972 British Grand Prix - Nanni Galli (PA123/002 Retired)
1972 German Grand Prix - Derek Bell (PA123/3 Retired)
1972 Austrian Grand Prix - Nanni Galli (PA123/002 Not Classified)
1972 Italian Grand Prix - Derek Bell (PA123/002 Non Starter)
1972 Italian Grand Prix - Nanni Galli (PA123/005 Retired)
1972 Canadian Grand Prix - Derek Bell (PA123/005 Retired)
1972 USA Grand Prix - Derek Bell (PA123/005 Retired)

[raymondzanzara]

Dear readers,
let me explain what I know about these cars, beginning with the more recent elements.
There are today, for sure at least 3 cars.
1) The Goral-Tecno the last one owned by Giuseppe Bianchini, the author of "TECNO - The Story"
2) The arrow shape Tecno #6 owned by the son of the real constructor Luciano Pederzani, who doesn't show it
3) The Prandina's car bought by Avv.L.Mancini in 1981 from the Tecno-Luciano Pederzani single person Company with 2 invoices. Mr Mancini "raced the car in the 90s with Litrico and Nino Balestra in some tracks in Italy and exposed the car at the Museo Bonfanti in '97. He sold the car to Prandina in 2003 and he always pretended and wrote and presented the car as 123/3. So did Prandina buy it. Prandina raced and drove the car to Vernasca and Monaco 2006 and so on. In autumn 2006 in Prato they presented the book of Bianchini and Prandina brought the car. nanni, from Prato, was there and sat in the car and probably decided tha evening with Pederzani's brother, the only one alive, to restore the car that was in the basement of him.
4) So was resuscitated the forth car. Ped-brother didn't knew the chassis number, or so he said tho Bianchini before, but the decided to say that it was number 123/3, supposedly the car with more palmares. The gearbox and the rear was missing but they managed to find the stuff and completed the car. When they wanted the FIA-HTP at the beginning they had some problems as Prandina's car already had an HTP asserting in the necessary documents the same chassis number, but finally the found a "less accurate" official who gave the the HTP.
So this is the present situation !
Fortuantely the two cars have a big difference between them, one has a wide body, and the other, nanni's one has a thin body.
This is the real difference !! The chassis numbers have always been mixed specially for cars racing abroad, temporarely exported with the "Carnet ATA" ! So at this point let us see where, when and with who the thin body raced, and the same for the wide body.
For sure at Clermont Ferand and Watkins Glen the body was WIDE !!
Thanks and by by !!

[allenbrown]

Welcome - and thanks for that explanation. Let's see what we can make of it.

[raymondzanzara]

Hello !
On MOTORSPORT (the green magazine) of May 2003, you can find a pictures resumé of my theory.
At page 83 there is the arrow shaped car with Amon at Monaco 73. Luciano's son car.
At page 84 you can see Giuseppe Bianchini's GORAL.
On page 85 you have #30 with Galli at Brands in 72 with the WIDE body on the top, and below the thin body cars with # 27 and Bell waiting on the pit wall.
Again on page 87 you can see the WIDE body #31 of Bell at Watkins Glen in 72.
nanni's car has thin body. Prandina's car has the WIDE body.
Next time i'll try to list the races with WIDE/FAT body and thin body.
Thanks again !

[pedrofast]

Dear Zanzara,
It is clear that you are not old enough to be present at f1 races in 1970, with age to remember, but are only making deductions based on a Magazine, that like every press magazine, make mistakes.

In 1972 at Brands Hatch (I am more than 70en) tha TECNO F1 was the THIN. The FAT one's started 1 year after in 1973, as per RULES ON FUEL TANKS: "inside the body".
Silence is like gold.

Edit - I accept that as English is not your first language that the level of aggression and rudeness conveyed here may not have been intentional. However, I agree with Allen's view expressed below so I have very severely edited your post. You may wish to apply your 'silence is like gold' to your own contributions. However, constructive posts are, of course, always welcome. - JT

[allenbrown]

Pedro, that is one of the rudest posts I have read here for quite some time. Congratulations on being blessed with such certainty that you can write off "every press magazine"'s work as mistakes.

Let me help you understand what Zanzara is talking about. There were three types of F1 Tecno, all quite different to each other. Firstly there was the 1972 car, then the Alan McCall-designed 1973 car, then the Goral-built car. The 1972 cars only ran in 1972, the 1973 cars only ran in 1973. Zanzara is talking about differences between the 1972 cars, not differences between the 1972 car and the 1973 car.

While I'm here, it is interesting to note in Autocourse 1972/72 where Alan Philips comments on Galli's new car at Monza: "chassis 005, but what happened to the third and fourth cars?". So would you be so kind to explain to us ordinary mortals how chassis 003 and 004 exist today?

[pedrofast]

Dear Mr Allenbrown,
1-The Zanzara's explanation is only an opinion of him.
2-esiste un'altra F1 Tecno monoscocca che e' stata fabbricata sempre dalla Tecno ed e' attualmente nella casa di Daniele Pederzani (son).Questa vettura e' quella con cui ha corso Cris Amon prima del ritiro ufficiale dalle corse di F1 della Tecno nel 1973.
3- This is not an opinion....go and see.

[John Turner]

Pedro, the fact that it is an opinion does not excuse the manner in which you responded. We are all entitled to opinions, if reasonably expressed. Furthermore, since this is an English speaking forum and to post in another language actually breaches our rules, please provide a translation of 2).

[pedrofast]

Originally Posted by pedrofast

Dear Mr Allenbrown,
1-The Zanzara's explanation is only an opinion of him.
2-esiste un'altra F1 Tecno monoscocca che e' stata fabbricata sempre dalla Tecno ed e' attualmente nella casa di Daniele Pederzani (son).Questa vettura e' quella con cui ha corso Cris Amon prima del ritiro ufficiale dalle corse di F1 della Tecno nel 1973.
3- This is not an opinion....go and see.

Exist one more TECNO PA123 built by Tecno mill. Actually is parked in the same house of DANIELE Pederzani(son of LUCIANO). This car is the car that raced with driver Cris Amon, untill the stop of the TECNO F1 in 1973.

[raymondzanzara]

Dear friends,
I don't understand why mr PEDROFAST is so angry !
About his explanation of the Amons monocque I just wrote that the car was pictured on Motorsport May 2003 at page 83.
I think that Mr Pedrofast/P.Raddi changed his mind and now would like to sell the car for nanni, who repeats to everybody that he wants to sell the car.
I really agree with who writes that there was a mess with the Tecno's chassis, but if you read old magazines as Motorsport, there was all the chassis numbers for all the starters in F1 GPs of 72 and 73. There is also a book "A record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racin" by Pauk SHELDON and Duncan RABAGLIATI who lists the chassis# of the cars and you can newer find number 3. Always #2 and #5.
It appears that number 123/3 was more a type # than a chassis#.
Then you have the difference of the width of the bodyies.
Some people are seriously, and cooly, working on this historical question and we hope that something good and clear will come out !!
Best regards and thanks
Raymondzanzara
PS Nobody knows the Raymond racing cars ?
Good Night