LPG powered cars!

[TerryD]

Having read that there might be a LPG powered car in Touring cars this year(Team AON ). Do all circuits have the equipement to deal with a fire involving one of these car? And do all personnel know how to deal with fires involving LPG?

[The STIG]

Well, I'll be the first then... What do you do about an LPG fire?

[flagwaver]

Taken from The LP Gas Association

In the event of a fire:

Take action as per any other vehicle fire. The fuel tank has a safety relief valve so that if pressure in the tank increases with heat then to prevent the tank fracturing (which would cause an explosion) gas is released through the valve in at a controlled rate. This can cause a jet of flame. If a vehicle is on fire then the tank should be identified and precautions taken to stand well back from that location. Water should be directed onto the tank to keep it cool until the heat from the vehicle is dissipated. Note: if the vehicle is inverted then the pressure relief valve may not operate which increases the importance of keeping the tank cooled with water. If it is not possible to put out the vehicle fire then all personnel should withdraw to a safe distance of at least 150 feet.

These notes are produced for information only and should not be construed as guidance or instructions.

The LP Gas Association does not accept any liability for the actions taken by any parties as a result of this information

[mjpiotr]

Originally Posted by The STIG

Well, I'll be the first then... What do you do about an LPG fire?

A friend of mine who was working at the petrol station as the operator of the LPG was told by his boss to... run away as fast as he can if he notices a fire!

But seriously, I'd also like to know what to do with LPG fire?

[Guinness2702]

Shows how much I know then, as I thought the idea was to *NOT* put water/coolant on the tank, as it may crack, releasing it's contents in one almighty whoosh/bang.

[The STIG]

Thanks Flagwaver, most informative.

[Matthews Dad]

Fire training for rally's done at Stockport college and Myerscough a few years ago used a training rig which used propane as the fuel, from memory it was a copper pipe with a few holes in it that was lit, this was put out using the usual combination of powder and foam

Having said this and again from the rallying world there has been a LPG pwered clio around in the north west for the past few years I have always said that if it was on fire I would be a long way away

In racing there are better equipped fire units available and I'm sure (hopeful) that if they can cope with the types of fires such as the Ginetta G50 at Oulton 2008 then an LPG powered car would be treated the same way

[Alfa Fan]

LPG has been run before, by John George in 2004 in a Honda and Peugeot. Also been used in the Vectra Challenge in 1999.

[TerryD]

Notes from Fire Brigade say that if the car is just leaking LPG and its not burning, don't turn off the ignition. Its possible to ignite the gas by a spark from ignition isolator(switch).
You can only cool an LPG cylinder by applying a fine spray to it for about 24 hours. Fire Brigade used to immerse a cylinder in water, but they have changed that now to the spray.

[JimW]

In the time-frame in which we are dealing with these on a circuit (or other fixed venue) then just put it out with dry powder. There will not have been any significant heat build up in the time.

Then retreat to a safe distance while the remaining gas leaks out, unless the occupant(s) are needing to be removed (as opposed to having got out and run like rabbits). In that circumstance the lucky rescue crew may have to consider how to stop the leak.

Regards

Jim

[PVDA]

Here in Australia LPG is a very common (cos it's real cheap, as in 50% the price of regular unleaded) and road cars are required to have shut off solenoids at the tank outlet as well as within the engine bay.

In theory as soon as power is removed from them (ignition off or cut off switch turned off) the flow of gas should stop. I've actually had a company car die on me due to a solenoid failure which left me stranded on the side of the road 200km away from home (was a 5 minute fix once I was flat towed to the nearby dealer service dept).

Gas tanks are much more sturdy than your average petrol tank so the chances of a tank leaking are slim, more likely will be a gas supply line leaking which hopefully will stop once the electrics are shut down. The fittings attached to the tank are also well protected to prevent collision related damage to them.

[Hepatic]

We were told a few years back to treat it the same as any other fire. Race cells will be much stronger than road ones too, but if you have any doubt ask the chief marshal to confirm it when you sign on or via the post chief's briefing in the morning

[mjpiotr]

Just found this on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBXS21uh6lc
looks that if the car is made properly the shouldn't be any difference. And actually it takes much longer for LPG car to explode then the petrol one.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by mjpiotr

Just found this on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBXS21uh6lc
looks that if the car is made properly the shouldn't be any difference. And actually it takes much longer for LPG car to explode then the petrol one.

As has been mentioned before the key is the relief valve, because the tank is a pressure vessel the contents need to be dumped in a controlled manner before the pressure becomes excessive even though this inevitably adds fuel to the fire. The alternative, well it's in that video isn't it.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

As has been mentioned before the key is the relief valve, because the tank is a pressure vessel the contents need to be dumped in a controlled manner before the pressure becomes excessive even though this inevitably adds fuel to the fire. The alternative, well it's in that video isn't it.

so the questions are, do the scrutinisers check for a safety release valve?
and do LPG race cars HAVE to have one fitted??

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

so the questions are, do the scrutinisers check for a safety release valve?
and do LPG race cars HAVE to have one fitted??

Blue Book 5.13.5:

"If using LPG, the entire system must conform
with Construction and Use regulations and LPG
Industry Technical Association Code of Practice No. 11."

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Blue Book 5.13.5:

"If using LPG, the entire system must conform
with Construction and Use regulations and LPG
Industry Technical Association Code of Practice No. 11."

errr does that mean they have to have a saftey valve fitted??

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

errr does that mean they have to have a saftey valve fitted??

I don't know for sure, I guess someone should look it up, but I wouldn't 'arf be surprised if it doesn't

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

errr does that mean they have to have a saftey valve fitted??

I've given you the sources, now it's up to you!

[Oscar114]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

errr does that mean they have to have a saftey valve fitted??

I wouldn't stand too close to an LPG car on fire without one.
You'll have a ticking bomb on your hands.

Water deluge systems are used on LPG storage tanks, keep it cool and the pressure reduces.

Would be interested to see how you tackled a fire with powder, do you then use the foam in place of water for cooling?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Blue Book 5.13.5:

"If using LPG, the entire system must conform
with Construction and Use regulations and LPG
Industry Technical Association Code of Practice No. 11."

Sadly the first is not available on-line (not in the usual places anyway) and has been subject to a myriad of amendements so working out a definitive answer might be a horrendous task. Also sadly the second is a priced publication. So a combination of the MSA and Dave have got us to a stage of more detailed ignorance.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Oscar114

. . . .
Would be interested to see how you tackled a fire with powder, do you then use the foam in place of water for cooling?

In the same way as you would if it was petrol. (Aim the powder jet at the base of the flames and move it to distribute the powder throught the flames starting at their origin.) Use foam to cool as normal.

(Last time I used foam on a gas escape was when an FF1600 took out a gas lamp in Phoenix Park. We thought that filling the resultant hole with foam would at least do no harm while we found and whittled a stick to block the escape of the gas. All a bit different from this case, no fire and town gas not LPG.)

Regards

Jim

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

So a combination of the MSA and Dave have got us to a stage of more detailed ignorance.

Oh no, I've been rumbled!

[Hepatic]

ignorance is bliss, is that why Dave always has a beeming smile?

[aland]

suppose someone could e-mail either pete riches the TOCA cheif scroot or the chief mechanic at arena motorsport and see exacly what system is fitted and their advice for if the thing catches fire