Question : Was the Black/Yellow quarted flag used in UK Circuit (Car) Racing

[MaxxUK]

Am sure I remember this being used in a car race I did once, today it is specified as (Only Karting) in the Blue Book.

Anyone remember it ever being used for car races? maybe before safety cars were that prevalent?

[Tim Falce]

It was used from 2001 until around 2005 when it was ditched due to some (a lot of) Muppet drivers not following the correct usage.

[roys1]

Oh yes,
The Battenberg flag was used quite well by a couple of clubs but there was also some against using it which is why it is no longer used.. Those couple of clubs were also on the race committee and vetoed it's use.
bah humbug.. Bring it back..

[The Fat Clerk]

We had a fatality @ Mallory caused by this flag in 2001 or2.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Yes Maxx, it was used for several years at the end of the 'nineties, introduced and championed by the late John Nicol, it suffered from "not invented here syndrome" I feel.

After some unfortunate experiences at one or two circuits, it was eventually dropped for cars but retained for carts.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

We had a fatality @ Mallory caused by this flag in 2001 or2.

How does a flag cause a fatality, surely it'd be a driver not acting appropriately or misuse by marshals?

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

How does a flag cause a fatality, surely it'd be a driver not acting appropriately or misuse by marshals?

[dave vass]

It was invented by Incarace, when the Eurocars were taken from Incarace short ovals onto the national race circuits. At first it was only used at Eurocar meetings, but then was used at many other race meetings around the country, (sanctioned by the RACMSA), but not all clubs, who didn't like/agree with it, used it, and eventually it was dropped. I preferred it to the current safety car system; which I don't think works any better.

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by dave vass

I preferred it to the current safety car system; .

Ah, Yes - the "invisible safety car" flag - I remember it well

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

We had a fatality @ Mallory caused by this flag in 2001 or2.

Can you provide evidence of this conclusion? Otherwise I'm fairly unhappy with the legal implications of your statement.

[The Fat Clerk]

It was a meeting run by the 75MC and I was one of the Clerks.
The first nine or ten cars came out of the Devils Elbow saw the flag on the start line and braked down to 50 mph, the next car round, found the track full of cars considerably slower than himself, got onto the grass in avoidance, hit the barrier opposite Race Control and if my memory serves me correctly snapped his neck.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

It was a meeting run by the 75MC and I was one of the Clerks.
The first nine or ten cars came out of the Devils Elbow saw the flag on the start line and braked down to 50 mph, the next car round, found the track full of cars considerably slower than himself, got onto the grass in avoidance, hit the barrier opposite Race Control and if my memory serves me correctly snapped his neck.

...and there's an inquest report or similar that says that that the flag was to blame rather than any other factor?

[S.Moss]

The incident aside, i've never seen the batternberg flag used in karting either in 13 years..

[Ian Briggs]

Still got mine, its hanging in the garage.

Think it was a good idea, but only if you can guarantee that every driver knows the correct protocol, and behaves sensibly.....

On balance, the safety car works more, erm, safely, however, without wanting to open pandoras box, if every driver respected yellow flags, then we wouldnt need quite so many safety car scrambles because it would be safer to sort the problem out useing the marshals.









running for cover

[Speed Freek]

I would have thought if somebody like 'The Fat Clerk' makes a statement you ought to believe it without judgement. After all, he is a Clerk, MSA Steward and a rather experienced marshal. Especially when he was clerking that particular meeting.

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by S.Moss

The incident aside, I've never seen the batternberg flag used in karting either in 13 years..

used it last year - not too sure the drivers had a clue about speed though, they behaved as undisciplined as a typical rolling start getting sent round again

[johngee]

I always understood that the reason (or the main reason) that the use of the black and yellow quartered flag was discontinued was that it was not used outside of the UK and it was therefore felt inadvisable in view of overseas drivers being unaware of its' meaning.
As so often - I could be wrong!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Speed Freek

I would have thought if somebody like 'The Fat Clerk' makes a statement you ought to believe it without judgement. After all, he is a Clerk, MSA Steward and a rather experienced marshal. Especially when he was clerking that particular meeting.

Disappointingly, I've had to learn that just because I might believe something it doesn't always make it correct in law. Which is a shame.

Clearly Tenths has to protect itself against the risk of litigation and apportioning blame for fatalities publicly is best left to the official bodies which is why I'm asking for that confirmation that this was the official outcome.

I haven't deleted the comment because I'm assuming that FC has that confirmation or that given his experience he wouldn't have made such a clear statement without saying that it was just his opinion.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

Still got mine, its hanging in the garage.

Does that mean you only walk very slowly in the garage.......?

[Tom Bee]

Originally Posted by S.Moss

The incident aside, i've never seen the batternberg flag used in karting either in 13 years..

I kart marshal and we use it quite often, luckily I have never seen an accident while under these flag conditions.

(Very good Terry)

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by johngee

I always understood that the reason (or the main reason) that the use of the black and yellow quartered flag was discontinued was that it was not used outside of the UK and it was therefore felt inadvisable in view of overseas drivers being unaware of its' meaning.
As so often - I could be wrong!

Quite a number of years ago we were at Croix-en-Ternois and the battenburg flag was put out in practice during a mainly German session. The driving standards were excellent, simply because they had absolutely no idea what it meant - so they all slowed down to be on the safe side!

Having my own set of flags apart from the battenberg, it was amazing the number of times I suddenly realised that, oops, I hadn't got one out of the box - usually when needed!

One other question - is it really that long ago since it was discontinued that someone who is obviously relatively new to all this (I won't presume through youth) asks this question? I think I am now firmly in the "dinosaur camp"!

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

We had a fatality @ Mallory caused by this flag in 2001 or2.

Was 01. First time that I'd either attended or marshalled a car meeting @ Mallory and the first time that I met Brian (Coleman) and Shelagh. I seem to remember Shelagh telling us all about Rockingham - which had just opened.

[Shelagh]

KayBee - your memory is better than mine!

[NewYankee01]

had a kart meeting 3 weeks ago where 8/9 year obeyed it perfectly, used it well and godsend its still used.

[The Fat Clerk]

I've 'Stewarded' half a dozen or so kart events this year, where it always seems to work perfectly.