Attendance Sigs

[Terrible-Tones]

I know we had a debate on here about who could sign Attendance sigs and I promised to go and ask the powers that be to sort this once and for all.

For the life of me a cannot find or remember which thread the question was in (It is old age catching up) but it revolved around someone saying a "Track" marshal had signed a "Trainee" Marshal's card and the "Trainee", in turn, had signed the "Track" marshals card. (Only the two of them on the post).

Here is the answer I have got after punting it up through the BMMC and ultimately to the MSA.

Attendance signatures can be signed by anyone who is at a more senior grade than the person seeking the signature. The signer has to be in the same discipine as the "seeker".

So for instance out on track doing Incident -

A "Track" marshal can indeed sign a "Trainee" marshals sig card for attendance - useful if there are only two of you on post as in the example above.

In turn an Exp Marshal can sign a Track Marshals card and so on up the chain.

(Clearly in most cases a PC or IO will sign anyway)

What cannot happen is that a less senior marshal signs your card. So in the example above the Trainee marshal should not have signed the Track marshals card. Nor indeed should a Track Marshal sign an Experienced Marshal's card. In these cases the more senior marshal can either get a sig from an adjoining PC or the Chief Marshal.

Nor can a Track marshal sign another Track marshals card, the signing marshal has to be senior - not an "equivalent" grade.

I hope this has clarified the situation.

[SouthportFC Fan]

Thanks for that Tony.

That's pretty much the way I've interpreted the 'rules'.

(Tho' I have signed some when the PC's decided they've lost their pen, developed writer's cramp or developed any other issue with their writing arm !)

[Bodysnatcher]

That means then, that as an (almost..) XPC I can only get attendance sigs from other XPCs or a CoC.

Too much hassle.

I'll just carry on as before then, in the most part writing up my own Personal record card, and await the reaction from some petty Jobsworth when he/she asks to see my card to prove my grade/experience.
:whistles:
got trainee to sign off my post chief card once...

but on a serious note, as was mentioned elsewhere, once a marshal gets to a grade they are happy with many stop getting their PRC signed.
What is the point of it?
Most will be well known to those around them and it's not as if we would kick a marshal out for not having a (noncompulsory?) PRC. Well, most of us anyway.
As for doing a set number of days to maintain your grade, don't make me laugh..some get away with it.

[HairyDJ]

Thanks Tony, but I'm not sure that the MSA response is worded precisely enough to give absolute clarity still . . .

It seems to say the signatory must be substantively graded at the higher grade, rather than performing the higher duty for that day? So, the PC (or IO) for the day cannot sign cards for their team, even if they've been doing the higher duty regularly but are not actually regraded into the grade?

I also happily interpret the "in the same discipline" to mean that an Experienced Kart or Speed grading is not appropriate to sign a Race marshal's card (unless they have the appropriate Race grading). BUT - the woolliness of the term may lead a graded flag marshal (probably also asked to act as Observer for the day!) to doubt they could sign a Track attendance signature?

The real fun comes with a situation that has arisen previously for me in a karting environment - the club's Chief Marshal is not MSA registered, so I end up tracking down a Clerk or Steward for an autograph!

What really irks me with the pedantry is that I really doubt that any grading officer at club/ region / national level has the time or inclination to check every line of an upgrade card for valid MSA numbers - matched to the correct name and verified against the signature on file. you can bet the MSA won't do it either - unless that's why it takes so long for upgrades to come through sometimes

Get the best possible attendance signature for each day, and if you have a few more than the bare minimum for your upgrade, then all the better (see other threads on the rush to badge up!).


For me, the weirdest thing was after my upgrade to Experienced Track, the ritual of digging out my card was history - just collect a few each year to evidence my continued attendance, or odd days stepping up to assist with other duties . . . and relax

[Charlyw001]

Minefield !! comes to mind.

Is it still 10 signatures for the same discipline along with 1 or 2 training sessions of the desired or any training ?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Thanks Tony, but I'm not sure that the MSA response is worded precisely enough to give absolute clarity still . . .

More to do with my poor English and writing skills methinks...I wrote it after a verbal confirmation, not written.

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

It seems to say the signatory must be substantively graded at the higher grade, rather than performing the higher duty for that day? So, the PC (or IO) for the day cannot sign cards for their team, even if they've been doing the higher duty regularly but are not actually regraded into the grade?

No - acting is fine as far as I understand it - so if an Experienced Track is acting as IO - then there are no issues for him signing the teams cards - even the one or two Exp Tracks he may have on the team.

The issue comes if you have two Track or Exp Track guys on their own at a spot (unlikely???)....!! Probably my best advice is get it signed by an adjoining PC or IO.

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

I also happily interpret the "in the same discipline" to mean that an Experienced Kart or Speed grading is not appropriate to sign a Race marshal's card (unless they have the appropriate Race grading)

Correct

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

BUT - the woolliness of the term may lead a graded flag marshal (probably also asked to act as Observer for the day!) to doubt they could sign a Track attendance signature?

If they are also PC then they can sign, if they are "only" flagging then no, they cannot - Flag is a distinct and seperate discipline from Incident in this context.

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

For me, the weirdest thing was after my upgrade to Experienced Track, the ritual of digging out my card was history - just collect a few each year to evidence my continued attendance, or odd days stepping up to assist with other duties . . . and relax

Yes - I agree - I still write in every day I do - so I have a list for my own , records, but don't necessarily go out to get a sig.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Charlyw001

Minefield !! comes to mind.

Is it still 10 signatures for the same discipline along with 1 or 2 training sessions of the desired or any training ?

From Trainee to Track - yes! But with the addition of two "Assessment Days" on in Incident and one in Flags. These HAVE to be done by a substantive Examinging Post Chief. It is probably best to do a couple of days flagging before the upgrade so you don't mess up the assessment.

Training best to be Incident - general training days (most are considered as such)are also fine.

If you are a Trainee Specialist - then it is a training day in your discipline (often covered in general training days) 10 attendance sigs and a single Assesment Day. This has to be carried out by a substantive Examing Specialist.

[Dave Brand]

Maybe some stones are best left unturned? It used to be simple - anyone with an MSA number could sign for attendance, only an Examining Observer could give upgrade signatures.

What we're now saying is that if there's just me & a trainee on post, said trainee is not worthy enough to sign my card, while on the other hand an Examining Post Chief who doesn't know where I've been all day (could have spent the day in the bar!) can sign to say I've done a day's marshalling!

Making a simple job complicated . . .

[deley]

As a matter of interest I don't believe Flag and Incident are seperate disciplines in the context of signing attendance cards - Race and Specialist would be

Bottom line though ...... I am sure this is all getting over-complicated as a result of it being over-analysed

If attendance sigs are that much of an issue then the simplest thing, rather than trying to define it here on a discussion forum (much as that might be interesting), would be for one (or more) clubs to seek written clarification from the MSA which could be incorporated into newsletters etc and added as a brief update to training days next year.

..... just my opinion before people shoot me

Dave

[SouthportFC Fan]

RE written guidance from the MSA

A good idea, particularly for occasional marshals from the smaller clubs

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

These HAVE to be done by a substantive Examinging Post Chief.

Harsh!

[Terrible-Tones]

Me only messenger - please don't shoot

I was asked to get clarification and I have done my best to do so as promised.

I happen to agree it is being over analysed, I mean honestly it isn't a difficult concept. However I do agree that written guidance from the MSA would be very useful indeed. Then it is set out clearly.

It does seem to be one part of the Upgrade system that is not covered in the guidance paperwork, but is essentially the heart of the system!

I have never seen or heard of this issue arising in a real situation myself, apart from the one post on here. I have been asked about it quite a lot though...

Dave B, honestly, I wouldn't have admitted in writing that you spend all day in the bar when observing...I mean we all know, but....

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

As a matter of interest I don't believe Flag and Incident are seperate disciplines in the context of signing attendance cards - Race and Specialist would be

Yeah see your point - I may have go this bit wrong...I'll check on that as well....

[deley]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Me only messenger - please don't shoot

I was asked to get clarification and I have done my best to do so as promised.

I happen to agree it is being over analysed, I mean honestly it isn't a difficult concept. However I do agree that written guidance from the MSA would be very useful indeed. Then it is set out clearly.

It does seem to be one part of the Upgrade system that is not covered in the guidance paperwork, but is essentially the heart of the system!

I have never seen or heard of this issue arising in a real situation myself, apart from the one post on here. I have been asked about it quite a lot though...

Dave B, honestly, I wouldn't have admitted in writing that you spend all day in the bar when observing...I mean we all know, but....

no shots fired ......

[exflagman]

This and the associated thread on upgrading just goes to show just how far the lunatics have reached in taking over the asylum or should that be

[Woolley]

Hmm, so as Chief Marshal on a hillclimb I shouldn't sign attendance for a race marshal's card?

Ah, what the heck. They attended, someone else can work out if it's valid IF anyone ever looks at one.

[beltanedeath]

like everyone, i find this baffling.

perhaps we should just hand our cards in to the chief marshal at the start then he could spend an hour signing them all and hand them back at the end of the day??? no or how about this, we all hand our cards in at the end of the day and wait till there all done before going home?



sorry i find myself in sarcastic mode this morning...

Sean

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Dave B, honestly, I wouldn't have admitted in writing that you spend all day in the bar when observing...I mean we all know, but....

Some big boys made me type that & then ran away!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by beltanedeath

perhaps we should just hand our cards in to the chief marshal at the start then he could spend an hour signing them all and hand them back at the end of the day???

That's the way it used to (still does?) work at Knockhill for attendance signatures. However, the new grading system requires that cards be available to the Post Chief for comments, so the signing has to be done on post.

no or how about this, we all hand our cards in at the end of the day and wait till there all done before going home?

Cards should be handed in at the start of the day & should not be signed until the end of the day, so everybody should wait at the end of the meeting while the cards are all signed! Meanwhile, back in the real world. . .

sorry i find myself in sarcastic mode this morning...

So do I . . . or maybe ironic would be a better description!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

That means then, that as an (almost..) XPC I can only get attendance sigs from other XPCs or a CoC.

Too much hassle.

I'll just carry on as before then, in the most part writing up my own Personal record card, and await the reaction from some petty Jobsworth when he/she asks to see my card to prove my grade/experience.
:whistles:

got trainee to sign off my post chief card once...

I thought 360 degree evaluation was quite fashionable these days.

Jim

[Bodysnatcher]

360 appraisal may be what some want Jim, but it's more of a 180 that's required in some quarters

Personally, when I reach the giddy heights of XPCdom, it might be reasonable to suggest that the next in line onpost should sign my card for attendance rather than have me waste time at the end of the day sorry.. spend time at the end of the day finding a superior being to attend to what is by the time one has reached that grade, a rather trivial exercise.

[Chris Hobson]

• It should be emphasised that signatures should only be given at the end of a day’s marshalling and only by the person acting as the post or discipline chief. This means that some clubs will have to change their current practice of giving the signatures at sign on. What this means is that if an ’Experienced marshal’ or an 'I/O' is acting as post chief they may give an attendance signature – but I/Os should remember they can only sign when they are acting as the post chief - not in their usual role.
• If a marshal seeking Track or Experienced Track grades successfully deals with a major incident during a day’s marshalling, then they may, at the discretion of the acting Post Chief, be given an upgrade signature instead of an attendance signature. In this case the card must be countersigned by an examining grade official on the same day.

• Cards must only be signed at the end of a day’s marshalling. This applies to attendance signatures as well as upgrades and training. Anyone acting as Post Chief and giving attendance signatures is requested to make use of the comments section to highlight any positive or negative aspects of the marshal’s day so that the marshal may build on their strengths and work to overcome their weaknesses.

I hope that is clear – it is what was circulated to all trainers and clubs at the beginning of the year.

And "yes" Wooley you could sign if you were acting as a post chief at a race meeting - it is only for attendance after all.

If you have any more queries please call.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by JimW

I thought 360 degree evaluation was quite fashionable these days.

Jim

Not heard of this one yet LOL. Guess this is more "Management Double Speak". Why use a plain English word when you can use meaningless out of context drivel to try and convey the same thing? I guess 360 degree is another word for an "appraisal" (where you are encouraged to give feedback) and of course "appraisal" is another word for an Annual Review, which is another word for a chat to the boss.

My boss once said in an appraisal. "My door is always open, any problems come and speak to me without delay"

My answer; "Yes I know that, so what is the point of this appraisal? If there was a problem I would have told you, and if you have a problem with me I assume you would have already spoken to me immediately like any good manager...so exactly what are we doing here wasting valuable time when I could be doing that urgent report you requested earlier?"

Yes, I am cynical about such matters...

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

• If a marshal seeking Track or Experienced Track grades successfully deals with a major incident during a day’s marshalling, then they may, at the discretion of the acting Post Chief, be given an upgrade signature instead of an attendance signature. In this case the card must be countersigned by an examining grade official on the same day.

This seems to confuse the issue. I didn't think there was such a thing as an "upgrade signature" at the moment although many people are pressing for the return of such things. My simple understanding is that there are only two things at the moment; attendance signatures and upgrade assessments. Surely this is not suggesting that an acting Post Chief can do an upgrade assessment and then have it countersigned by an examiner?

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by JimW

I thought 360 degree evaluation was quite fashionable these days.

Jim

Especially with racing drivers who are in the process of deciding which part of the scenery they are about to make contact with.