Trainees are people too!

[Dave Brand]

There seems to be an opinion held by what I believe is a minority of marshals that there is some sort of stigma attached to trainee status & that the trainee grade is something to be lost as quickly as possible.


Personally I've never felt that being a trainee ever reflected adversely on me, not when I was a trainee marshal, trainee IO or trainee Post Chief. For me, being a trainee was a reflection of my lack of experience in a particular role & an indication of my need for, you guessed it, training, not a reflection of any lack of ability or, to a lesser degree, knowledge. Your time as a trainee is the time you learn the job under the guidance of more experienced marshals, put into practice the stuff you've learned at training days, make your mistakes & learn the good habits which will make you a safe, effective member of any team you find yourself in. Rush to upgrade & you risk losing that sound foundation.


Some people appear to think that the word “trainee” is, in itself, the cause of the perceived stigma & that a change of title would cure the “problem”. I don't think so – changing the name won't change attitudes.


It can be a little bit off-putting to new marshals listening to the conversation on post – everybody talking about all the big incidences & funny experiences they've had & you've never laid hands on a car, but don't worry, give it a year or two & you'll have plenty to talk about. (Come to think of it, I know one or two trainees who've caused as much chaos in half-a-dozen meetings as many of us see in half-a-dozen seasons . . . you know who you are!)


The attitude of some more experienced marshals towards trainees does leave a lot to be desired; thankfully, in my experience, the vast majority welcome trainees & go out of their way to help them & make them feel welcome. Personally I get a lot of satisfaction from seeing people who've been on post with me on their first ever day's marshalling progressing through the ranks – I like to feel that in some small way I may have made a contribution to their success. I worked with a lot of very helpful people when I first started – I feel it incumbent on me to maintain that tradition.


Yes, the recent very welcome large influx of new marshals & the introduction of the new grading scheme have created new challenges. Like it or not, we have to work with what we've got. If we are to maintain & improve marshalling standards we need to talk to people, not about them – advice, not criticism.


Enjoy your time as trainee – learn slowly, learn once. Don't feel that your status as a trainee marks you out as in any way inferior to more experienced marshals, just someone who is still learning the job.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

There seems to be an opinion held by what I believe is a minority of marshals that there is some sort of stigma attached to trainee status & that the trainee grade is something to be lost as quickly as possible.


Personally I've never felt that being a trainee ever reflected adversely on me, not when I was a trainee marshal, trainee IO or trainee Post Chief. For me, being a trainee was a reflection of my lack of experience in a particular role & an indication of my need for, you guessed it, training, not a reflection of any lack of ability or, to a lesser degree, knowledge. Your time as a trainee is the time you learn the job under the guidance of more experienced marshals, put into practice the stuff you've learned at training days, make your mistakes & learn the good habits which will make you a safe, effective member of any team you find yourself in. Rush to upgrade & you risk losing that sound foundation.


Some people appear to think that the word “trainee” is, in itself, the cause of the perceived stigma & that a change of title would cure the “problem”. I don't think so – changing the name won't change attitudes.


It can be a little bit off-putting to new marshals listening to the conversation on post – everybody talking about all the big incidences & funny experiences they've had & you've never laid hands on a car, but don't worry, give it a year or two & you'll have plenty to talk about. (Come to think of it, I know one or two trainees who've caused as much chaos in half-a-dozen meetings as many of us see in half-a-dozen seasons . . . you know who you are!)


The attitude of some more experienced marshals towards trainees does leave a lot to be desired; thankfully, in my experience, the vast majority welcome trainees & go out of their way to help them & make them feel welcome. Personally I get a lot of satisfaction from seeing people who've been on post with me on their first ever day's marshalling progressing through the ranks – I like to feel that in some small way I may have made a contribution to their success. I worked with a lot of very helpful people when I first started – I feel it incumbent on me to maintain that tradition.


Yes, the recent very welcome large influx of new marshals & the introduction of the new grading scheme have created new challenges. Like it or not, we have to work with what we've got. If we are to maintain & improve marshalling standards we need to talk to people, not about them – advice, not criticism.


Enjoy your time as trainee – learn slowly, learn once. Don't feel that your status as a trainee marks you out as in any way inferior to more experienced marshals, just someone who is still learning the job.

ABSOLUTELY 100 PERCENT TOTALLY AGREE!!!

training is not something to be rushed through, its something that should be done properly so that you become a better marshal.

i have known certain people that have rushed throguh training and gone 'signature hunting' and whom are now higher up the marshalling ladder that i dont like working with and would rather work with a trainee anyday!....

...that said we are all trainees of sorts, if we arent learning something every time we are out on bank then theres something wrong with us.

ofter 8 years of incident marshalling ive taken up flagging this year/...so im trainee flags, which i ABSOLUTELY LOVE doing, its great to be back as a trainee again, learning new things and having a completely different outlook on a race.....

....moral of the story, dont rush through your white badge, just enjoy racing, if the white badge stigma bothers you that much then take it off and put it in your pocket, or if its just power or status your after, make yourself known and il remove myself from your post

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

if the white badge stigma bothers you that much then take it off and put it in your pocket

word of advice from an experienced marshal here - make sure the pin on the back of the badge isn't loose, or you'll feel a little scratch (I wanted to put a different word, but being PC I haven't )

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

...that said we are all trainees of sorts, if we arent learning something every time we are out on bank then theres something wrong with us.

Nicely said....

I have gone back to being a Trainee Specialist (Startline). It is nice and relaxing, no real responsibility as yet, and I can keep asking stuff & claiming lack of experience when I get it all wrong (which it quite often in my case -).

Will do that for quite a while until I am happy that things, mostly, are not going wrong...

[socko]

Im in my first year of marshaling and i have the sigs,training day and flagging sigs to upgrade now,i wont and i carnt see it happening next year either.

I like being a trainee and i like the grade name i could think of much worse things to call a novice.

Being a trainee does give you a good buffer from some responsabilities and a shoulder to lean or cry on

I have never really met any negativaty towards my grade only help and encouragment but then again i do ask alot questions and question why certain things are done the way they are. The only negative comments i tend to hear towards trainees is on forums where its easy to point blame when sat behind a keyboard.

Im a trainee and proud to be one so please keep supporting us and help us to enjoy what you do

[EvilPumpkin]

I've only ever come across this very occasionally. However, on those occasions, the issue was more to do with the trainees in question, who seemed to be suffering from a very serious case of "supermarshalitis".

Yes, we all have a tendancy to tell "war stories". I challenge anyone here not to be delighted to get a fresh audience But it's all done in the spirit of inclusion, to try to make the new person feel more involved - at least that's been my experience.

As for grading, well we have all experienced people who seem to have been "over" graded and been put into positions that they don't seem to be equipped to handle - I also know a lot of folks who don't hold a grade at all and are some of the best marshals I've ever worked with.


As with most things in life, you will generally be treated just fine, provided you behave that way.

[Ian Lewis]

Great post Dave

I often ask a trainee wanting an upgrade with the bare minimum of signatures if he or she would be happy training a trainee? I then ask " What could you teach them"

The reply is usually ...Silence...........or "not much"

In my morning briefing, I always say to my Marshals on post with me...

" I have been Marshaling for than than 30 years and I am still learning"

Followed by............"Right- who's got cakes or sweeties"

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Ian Lewis

Followed by............"Right- who's got cakes or sweeties"

i thought accepting bribes for signatures was fround upon Ian!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i thought accepting bribes for signatures was fround upon Ian!

Noooooooo! It's actively encouraged!

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Noooooooo! It's actively encouraged!

Why do you think most Black-X badges tend to have a spreading waistline?

[bigorangeoveralls]

absolootle loved my time as a trainee worked whith many good marsalles
never felt left out even when they wher talking about incidents they had delt whith now like havin trianees whith me keeps me on toes why they ask about things let rember all had to start as a trianee

[mikenunn-78]

I think most trainess at some point have come across many people who say the word "trainee" as if they have a mouthful of something rather unpleasant....

As a recently upgraded trainee I would always shrug this off with a grin, however some people don't take it that way and you've only got to look at some of the BTCC posts on here to see trainees saying that they don't feel welcome and they'll send their tickets back.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of trainee marshals that give up before upgrading and their reasons for giving up....... I'm sure that the trainee status would only be a small percentage of this, but it would perhaps help to increase retention.

[stephen0183]

tbh, I don't wear my white badge, the reason being it broke, but I do make it clear when I get on post that I am a trainee and that I've done xx meetings.

I've never had an issue on post with anyones attitude and everyone I've worked with have taught me something new every time and I've been happy to ask them questions. If I know I've done something wrong, I'll admit my mistake, learn from it and move on. If I'm told I've done something wrong, I'll take it in good grace, learn from it and move on. As someone who is a trainer at work, I act in a way that I would expect one of my trainees to act!!

When I first started, I wanted to fly through the grades. Having been on the bank and spoken to people on there, my mind soon changed and I won't even entertain the thought of upgrading until I've had a good variety of incidents to deal with first!

But I am a signature hunter and I make no excuses for it. I'm not doing it for upgrade purposes, but to provide evidence for what I've said I've said I've done and to log my progress as a trainee. Even if whoever signs my card doesn't put something in at the back with what I've done/not done/should have done/learnt etc etc, I'll put something in myself so any PC (acting, examining or otherwise!) can see what I've been up to on post.

[Woolley]

Well put, Dave, completely agree with you.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by stephen0183

But I am a signature hunter and I make no excuses for it. I'm not doing it for upgrade purposes, but to provide evidence for what I've said I've said I've done and to log my progress as a trainee.

theres a MASSIVE difference between this and what i mentioned...you arent signature hunting, you are using the grading system correctly.

by signature hunting i meant that i know of some people who progress through the ranks FAR too quickly, in essence if you wanted to with the old system i have known people to jump from trainee to incident in a single year and IO within 18 months, and have far less expereince than some 'trainees'! while they have obtained the signatures to do this, which is fair enough and i realise some people do a lot of meetings in a year, surely that is far too quick when you realise you have peoples lives in your hands.....

i remember when i was a trainee, i did every meeting at donington and oulton for a year, upgraded to course, then took 3 years to get to incident, i had double the signatures required after the first year but didnt feel like upgrading until i was ready....

....same goes for me now as trainee flags, i wont upgrade until i feel im ready, although those shiny blue and red badges do look nice

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by mikenunn-78

... some of the BTCC posts on here to see trainees saying that they don't feel welcome and they'll send their tickets back.

Not sure many anti-BTCC posts have been anti-trainee, but more anti- the organisational approach of packing the bank with folk who outnumber their potential mentors?

[Glovesman]

As a trainee in my first year, I have still managed to obtain enough signatures to go for an upgrade, but I do not believe that this should be rushed into.

Of all the days I have spend on the bank, I am yet to experience a serious incident. I feel that I would be able to deal with one, but until you actually experience this you will never know for sure. If you upgrade too quickly you can not only put yourself in danger, but potentially other people as well.

This weekend I was on the bank with a new trainee and an experienced marshal, but I was still giving advice to the experienced marshal as to how we should deal with situations. I also gave out information that should have been in a briefing.
It did feel at times that I was a Trainee/Post Chief.

I must add that this was still a very enjoyable weekend, and the guys I was with were great to work with.

I personally have not found any negativity towards me as a trainee, although I must admit I have been on post with some trainees that don't help the situation.

[mikenunn-78]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Not sure many anti-BTCC posts have been anti-trainee, but more anti- the organisational approach of packing the bank with folk who outnumber their potential mentors?

Oh I agree with you, I don't think it is the predominant view.

The response of people on here to the person who was going to send back their tickets was not to do so, but to go along and have a great time.

[FRENCHIE44T]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Why do you think most Black-X badges tend to have a spreading waistline?

Pork Pies................. Look out.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Not sure many anti-BTCC posts have been anti-trainee, but more anti- the organisational approach of packing the bank with folk who outnumber their potential mentors?

Not a problem confined to any particular type of meeting. Recruiting efforts over the last few years have led to a vast, & very welcome, increase in marshal numbers. An inevitable result of this is that the percentage of new or very inexperienced marshals has also risen, with a direct effect on the balance of experience on post.

I would expect that the next few years recruiting levels will fall, while at the same time marshals currently in the system will gain more experience so that the overall experience level will rise. The only thing that does concern me is that trainees are not getting enough time working with experienced marshals to learn the basics, to the detriment of marshalling standards.

[Mark Noble]

I have worked with many a trainee on post this year, and I can't say I have seen ANY 'detremental' marshalling. Those of you that have dealt with your very first accidents have done so superbly from what I have seen...I'm thinking Mazdas at Old Hall inparticular!

And a big WELL DONE to those trainees who are 'team leading' less experienced trainees in pairs...don't think I could have looked after somebody who had done 2 meetings when I had only done 4!

Bonzer effort, folks!

[Stuart H]

Off topic slighty: With the trainee's do they spend a day in race control at all?

I've been in race control for the truck meeting a couple of years ago - it's certainley fairley intresting!!

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by Stuart H

Off topic slighty: With the trainee's do they spend a day in race control at all?

I've been in race control for the truck meeting a couple of years ago - it's certainley fairley intresting!!

Stuart,
At Silverstone, we take the Taster Day attendees up to Race Control during the session, explain to them who is who, what goes on and usually one of the Clerks, or the Chief IO will have a word. As far as I know that is all they get - but that is more than I got when I started back in the year of ninteen hundred and frozen to death .

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mark Noble

I have worked with many a trainee on post this year, and I can't say I have seen ANY 'detremental' marshalling. Those of you that have dealt with your very first accidents have done so superbly from what I have seen...I'm thinking Mazdas at Old Hall inparticular!

Yes, incidents are being dealt with effectively, but all too often, out of lack of guidance from experienced incident marshals, people are exposing themselves to unnecessary danger or missing the basics such as taking a bottle.

The problem with the "Sit next to Nelly" method of training is that it requires "Nelly" to both be very experienced & to have the ability to train other people effectively; such people are now very rare. It's up to those of us who have a little bit of experience to ensure that new marshals do learn safe, efficient ways of working.

[Cerberus]

Good point about effective training.

As a trainee I have been on post with experienced marshals who have not passed on any information at all. I guess it's a case of some people being better team leaders/managers than others. For example, the first thing I establish with the people I am working with is that if anything happens, who will deal with the driver, and who will take the bottle. I think this works well as only 2 people go out to the car initially leaving others safe on the bank for back-up or other incidents - unless it's a push out of the gravel or a big incident when each team will take a car each to avoid all heading to the same part of the incident.

I think it all comes down to communication, being organised and effective team management.

I enjoyed my time being a trainee, and have always been treated fairly and equally. I hope as I progress that I will treat all trainees in the same way.

As a trainee I have been asked if I would man a post on my own when we were very short of people. I was happy to do so but didn't feel under any pressure.

As a trainee or otherwise, never let anyone pressure you into doing something you really feel uncomfortable about and never ask anyone to do something you wouldn't do yourself. Most important - Enjoy your time on post.