[LM24] Is Le Mans Going to Be Neutered For 2012?

[gregtummer]

I recall a few posters on here discussing the Radio Le Mans guys saying how the ACO has a 3:30 lap time obsession and if the times are below that in 2011, that the track may be changed.

Also they said the circuit is up for accrediation this year and that they may need to make changes to keep hosting the race.

Has anyone heard any updates about this?

[Carsandmotorracing]

None here, i'll go on a rampage if it's true though.

[Aysedasi]

Nothing at all.

[Ferrari333SP]

This whole 3:30 lap time obsession is just the stupidest thing.

[AstonGeoff]

Le Mans was neutered many years ago with the two chicanes on Mulsanne and the changes before and after the Dunlop bridge.

I doubt they would change the circuit again for next year, it's not as simple as just deciding, planning and all sorts of red tape need to be negotiated! But they could always change the regs slightly to slow down the faster prototypes, a bit of weight maybe.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Le Mans was neutered many years ago with the two chicanes on Mulsanne and the changes before and after the Dunlop bridge.

I doubt they would change the circuit again for next year, it's not as simple as just deciding, planning and all sorts of red tape need to be negotiated! But they could always change the regs slightly to slow down the faster prototypes, a bit of weight maybe.

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Also they said the circuit is up for accrediation this year and that they may need to make changes to keep hosting the race

The race has been nutered enough , since Ive been going .

The sound decible thing is bull , as witnessed by the F1 tracks complaining that the Fia new F1 regs would be quieter . People want sound , not mufflers !!!

If there was threat of the race not being held , imagine what that would do to the economy of a small sleeply French town .

I agree with AstonGoeff , the new section after the Dunlop bridge was unnessessary and it turns out quite dangerous too .

[Ferrari333SP]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

For me, I'd much rather enjoy seeing all the cars fly down the Mulsanne at tops speed, to really see what the cars can do. It's like watching the Nurburgring 24 Hours; the most exciting part of the track there for me to watch is the long straight, as you really get to see what those fast cars are made of. You don't get to see top speeds much of anywhere these days, including LeMans, which is a shame I think.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Nothing was quite so evocative for me as the sight of the cars in the old Group C days bursting under the Dunlop Bridge and charging down to the Esses. The curves keep the cars in view for a little longer for the camera lens but for me, changing one of the classic Le Mans views for bikes was (and always will be) sacrilege of the highest order.......

[Adam43]

If they had to do it then they made a good job, but I too prefer the previous version.

However, let's face it, it was ruined in the '70s. I don't know why we bother.

[Ferrari333SP]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

Whoops, somehow thought you were talking about the chicanes on the Mulsanne, not the Dunlop curves. In any case, I'm kind of indifferent towards the changes there. It was an iconic image to see the cars go down the hill after the bridge, but the new curves present a decent passing opportunity, and the swoopy nature of it looks like it's fun to drive.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Nothing was quite so evocative for me as the sight of the cars in the old Group C days bursting under the Dunlop Bridge and charging down to the Esses. The curves keep the cars in view for a little longer for the camera lens but for me, changing one of the classic Le Mans views for bikes was (and always will be) sacrilege of the highest order.......

I agree..... but I am learning to live with it as the new section is pretty good too...... its just not as good as the original

[GT6]

well as the portion of track just after dunlop is where we camp and spend a fair length of time watching the race I would like to say that it is better now than before. A place to watch the cars coming out from under the bridge and then look down on the cars going through the fast curves. You get to see and hear the cars for a reasonable amount of time and a few incidents always seem to happen along that stretch of track.

[Purist]

They can only make the race MORE dangerous now, by adding more corners, or slowing the LMPs any more. The low-percentage maneuvers we saw this year should be a damn clear wake-up call that the LMP1s and LMP2s NEED more top-end speed compared to the GTs.

There was a great little interview on the SPEED Channel coverage during the McNish caution. Justin Bell caught up with his dad (Derek) out behind the paddock. Derek thought that the advances in car and track safety were a good thing. However, he firmly believes there are too many corners at Le Mans, which means there now are too many spots where LMPs MUST take absurd risks to get by the GTs, and also that 240mph, in a straight line, shouldn't be a problem in this day and age.

They've actually been dealing with this issue some on downhill skiing. That is, they've been taking out some corners that had been added previously to try and improve safety. However, the corners make the courses more taxing, which significantly increases the chances of a mistake and a crash. And when you're in those corners, you're pointed more directly at the fencing, but in skiing, you don't have a safety cell around you, so that fence is going to be none too kind to your body when you hit it.

If it were my call on Le mans, I'd reinstate the full Mulsanne, the old Dunlop Curve, and the straight run from the Dunlop Curve to the Esses. The other thing I would do there, by the Dunlop Bridge, is set up a dedicated spotter's post for the teams. This last item should be put in place ASAP anyway, to minimize the chances of a repeat of the MicNish, or similar, incident.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Ferrari333SP

It's like watching the Nurburgring 24 Hours; the most exciting part of the track there for me to watch is the long straight, as you really get to see what those fast cars are made of.

Actually, I'd rather have one chicane at some of the Nordschleife ridiculously long straights. I mean fast, wide chicanes like in La Sarth, not Monza / Zolder chicanes.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by GT6

well as the portion of track just after dunlop is where we camp and spend a fair length of time watching the race I would like to say that it is better now than before. A place to watch the cars coming out from under the bridge and then look down on the cars going through the fast curves. You get to see and hear the cars for a reasonable amount of time and a few incidents always seem to happen along that stretch of track.

Hmmm, can't remember any this year.........

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Purist

They can only make the race MORE dangerous now, by adding more corners, or slowing the LMPs any more. The low-percentage maneuvers we saw this year should be a damn clear wake-up call that the LMP1s and LMP2s NEED more top-end speed compared to the GTs.

There was a great little interview on the SPEED Channel coverage during the McNish caution. Justin Bell caught up with his dad (Derek) out behind the paddock. Derek thought that the advances in car and track safety were a good thing. However, he firmly believes there are too many corners at Le Mans, which means there now are too many spots where LMPs MUST take absurd risks to get by the GTs, and also that 240mph, in a straight line, shouldn't be a problem in this day and age.

They've actually been dealing with this issue some on downhill skiing. That is, they've been taking out some corners that had been added previously to try and improve safety. However, the corners make the courses more taxing, which significantly increases the chances of a mistake and a crash. And when you're in those corners, you're pointed more directly at the fencing, but in skiing, you don't have a safety cell around you, so that fence is going to be none too kind to your body when you hit it.

If it were my call on Le mans, I'd reinstate the full Mulsanne, the old Dunlop Curve, and the straight run from the Dunlop Curve to the Esses. The other thing I would do there, by the Dunlop Bridge, is set up a dedicated spotter's post for the teams. This last item should be put in place ASAP anyway, to minimize the chances of a repeat of the MicNish, or similar, incident.

Lap times under 3 minutes!

The cars would have to be snails to run slower than 3:30.

They could just give the LMP1s and LMP2s more top speed. These accidents didn't happen before this year, as in the previous years, LMP1s would blow by everyone on the straights like they were standing still.

[Purist]

That's a big part of the point. The LMP1s and LMP2s need their top-end speed back for the straights.

In theory, I'd also like to see the Esses, Tetre Rouge, and Mulsanne returned to their old profiles. They used to be significantly slower corners. Taking away more of the reasons for these higher-downforce set-ups would certainly help the LMP/GT issues.

If they really want a "limit", make it 3:15 or something. A 3:30 is ridiculous, as a Porsche 917LH did a 3:13.9 in 1971. On a more practical note though, making the Le Mans circuit more top-end relevant would force the cars to be trimmer by default. This would have the added benefit of slowing cornering speeds at every track these cars visit. This would be safer, and reduce concerns over escalating average lap speeds.

The ACO will have no choice but to abandon the 3:30 limit, as the LMPs are making a mockery of it already, and this is necessary in order to keep the LMPs enough faster than the GTs. The GTs can only be pegged back so much before the manufacturers fail to see the point of making them, when they have to take away half their horsepower to make the "racing version". How stupid will that be.

NBU38, the Nordschleife only has one real straight, which still isn't entirely straight. A chicane anywhere else would make the high-speed corners afterward no challenge at all. The Nordschleife also already has dozens of esse bends, so a chicane adds NOTHING of value to the track. And that radically undulating Dottinger Hohe Straight is an indispensable signature of the track, period.

[NewYankee01]

well i hope the right to host at le mans expires so that if the event goes somewhere else it'll divebomb in popularity like the paris dakar, which evidently is thousands of miles away from both paris and the dakar...

the event wont dissapear but if they shorten the circuit as in take away most of the straight itll be a travesty. as people have said the 2 chicanes were bad enough but completely and utterly justified. anything else wont be, with the technology now the cars can run round all day without causing the drivers too much grief like they use to, its completely safe apart from the odd flip! but as happens so often in motorsport 95% of rumours from medium to high profile sources turn out to be true and this will end up happening despite what any protests go down.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

well i hope the right to host at le mans expires so that if the event goes somewhere else it'll divebomb in popularity like the paris dakar, which evidently is thousands of miles away from both paris and the dakar...

the event wont dissapear but if they shorten the circuit as in take away most of the straight itll be a travesty. as people have said the 2 chicanes were bad enough but completely and utterly justified. anything else wont be, with the technology now the cars can run round all day without causing the drivers too much grief like they use to, its completely safe apart from the odd flip! but as happens so often in motorsport 95% of rumours from medium to high profile sources turn out to be true and this will end up happening despite what any protests go down.

The moment they change the length of the circuit they'll loose the soul of Le Mans. Le Mans is all about the highspeeds and cars being setup for that. The moment they change the circuit it will become another neutered track... I certainly hope the ACO aren't that stupid. The 3:30 mark is also a farce. They should let the cars run their pace and not slow them down year after year.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by NelisB

The moment they change the length of the circuit they'll loose the soul of Le Mans. Le Mans is all about the highspeeds and cars being setup for that. The moment they change the circuit it will become another neutered track... I certainly hope the ACO aren't that stupid. The 3:30 mark is also a farce. They should let the cars run their pace and not slow them down year after year.

If you take the 2008 Peugeot 908 engine and combine it with the 2011 car's aerodynamics, the pole speed would probably be below a 3:08.

[Gingers4Justice]

I agree with people saying less corners would probably be safer. McNish's accident would never have happened on the old esses because there wasn't even a bend there.

Both Rockenfeller's and McNish's accidents proved, if anything, that Le Mans' is safe enough already, for the cars at least. People describe both drivers as "lucky", but I'm not sure how true that is - it would be unlucky if they were injured. LMP cars are so safe now that for the time being at least, more effort should be put in to spectator safety. Racing drivers understand the risks they are taking and they are paid to do it but fans should be looked after when they're paying money to watch the event. The real lucky ones in McNish's accident were the spectators, photographers and marshalls who were incredibly fortunate - especially the photographer who nearly had an Audi R18 front wheel land on his head from a great height.

That's what needs to be changed. I can't remember the last time a serious accident happened on the Mulsanne straight itself - most accidents happen at Mulsanne corner or the chicanes these days. I really hope someone at the ACO or FIA realises what needs to be done - and, more importantly, what doesn't need to be done.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I can't remember the last time a serious accident happened on the Mulsanne straight itself - most accidents happen at Mulsanne corner or the chicanes these days. I really hope someone at the ACO or FIA realises what needs to be done - and, more importantly, what doesn't need to be done.

unless its on the corner it could be webber's crash in the clk gtr? 12 years ago?
spectator safety is in big concern hopefully a 1955 will never happen again but that illustrates maybe the need to slow things down any bumps at 200 mph with an f1 car are sorted out, these things however with less downforce at 240mph is a different matter!, some of the pics from mcnish's accident shows that all the signed on people behind the tyre barriers had a very lucky escape on some angles and with the safety concious spoilsports! maybe its only a matter of time...

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

If you take the 2008 Peugeot 908 engine and combine it with the 2011 car's aerodynamics, the pole speed would probably be below a 3:08.

And how awesome would that be.

[gregtummer]

Here's what I don't get...

The drivers, the crews, and the fans all want to run the Mulsanne flat out without any chicanes.

So what is the problem?

I know the FIA implemented a rule saying they won't sanction any race that has straights longer than 2km, but (before this year and after 1992, 1993?) the ACO has been in charge of it.

So why can't the ACO just have every driver sign a waiver saying the ACO is not responsible for injuries, etc and that the drivers know the risk?

Is it insurance reasons?

I recall in the 80s Arie Luyendyk after going down the Mulsanne at Le Mans, got out of the car, upped his life insurance policy on the spot and then got back in the car and raced.

I mean, the fans already aren't legally allowed on the Mulsanne anyways, so what is the problem?