Dale Jr.

[muggle not]

I am going to be a little critical of the Nascar forum on 10-tenths. Losing Dale Jr. due to his concussions is big and sad news and there hasn't even been a 'thread' on it here. Jr. is one of the biggest and most popular drivers in the world.

Fact is that the concussions may end Jr's career. I, for one, hope that he retires. The risk that he would be taking is not worth it.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by muggle not

Losing Dale Jr. due to his concussions is big and sad news.

Not in my opinion it isn't. At best, Jr. has proved to be a decent journeyman, who because of his Daddy's name has lucked into a series of great drives in top-line teams.

[fieldodreams79]

Yep, and lucked into 19 wins, tied with Buddy Baker, Davey Allison, Carl Edwards and Fonty Flock.

[Clive Brown]

....a significant number of which were in plate races, when the DEI cars were demonstrably superior to competitors' equipment. His record over the past 4-5 years is less than stellar, despite his now driving for the pre-eminent organisation in the sport.

[fieldodreams79]

Explain 19 wins however you want to. He doesn't deserve half the hype he is given, but he also doesn't deserve half the criticism.

[Clive Brown]

I'm not all sure that he really gets much criticism, though. He'll always get a ride because of the mass market sponsorship opportunities that come with him, but his fanbase of Bubba and Betty-Lou is distinctly uncritical of their hero.

Driving a Hendrick car, he really ought to be able to challenge for the win on a regular basis.

[Jacques Rabbit]

The point is being missed here, I think.

The news isn't important based on whether or not you think Dale is a talented driver.

It's important because it shows clear flaws in NASCAR's concussion testing, detecting, and reporting policies, notably having no requirement for medical testing when a driver drives away from an accident, which only tests the car's health, not the driver's. Impacts of certain magnitude require testing in F1, for example, even if the driver somehow drove back to the pits (though in F1 that'd be very unlikely as large impacts usually cause huge damage to the car).

It is also important because of the serious consequences having multiple concussions in one's lifetime can have, and if this is a problem in NASCAR (which Jamie McMurray says it is, claiming that all 43 drivers have raced through concussions without taking any time to recover).

It is even more important because we get to see Brad Keselowski, M.D. express his continued opinions in various fields of NASCAR medicine.

So, it deserves a thread that goes deeper than "I like Dale" "yeah well I don't like Dale."

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

So, it deserves a thread that goes deeper than "I like Dale" "yeah well I don't like Dale."

Ah M. Lapin, a pleasure to hear from you again.

As it happens, I do like Jr. as a person, it's just that I don't rate him particularly highly as a real top-flight NASCAR driver.

But your principal point is extremely valid. We sit in front of our TVs week-in and week-out and watch the horrendous high-speed impacts that are part and parcel of NASCAR competition, and blithely expect as a matter of course to see the driver taken to the infield care centre, given the once-over, and then be discharged within a matter of minutes to talk with the media.

How much punishment has someone like Mark Martin taken over the years? Do NASCAR drivers get routine brain scans? The Junior incident certainly raises a number of issues, and it is to be hoped that his high profile might lead to NASCAR taking a rather longer view of this matter.

[muggle not]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

The point is being missed here, I think.

The news isn't important based on whether or not you think Dale is a talented driver.

It's important because it shows clear flaws in NASCAR's concussion testing, detecting, and reporting policies, notably having no requirement for medical testing when a driver drives away from an accident, which only tests the car's health, not the driver's. Impacts of certain magnitude require testing in F1, for example, even if the driver somehow drove back to the pits (though in F1 that'd be very unlikely as large impacts usually cause huge damage to the car).

It is also important because of the serious consequences having multiple concussions in one's lifetime can have, and if this is a problem in NASCAR (which Jamie McMurray says it is, claiming that all 43 drivers have raced through concussions without taking any time to recover).

It is even more important because we get to see Brad Keselowski, M.D. express his continued opinions in various fields of NASCAR medicine.

So, it deserves a thread that goes deeper than "I like Dale" "yeah well I don't like Dale."

You have pretty much hit it on the head (no pun intended).

And we can argue until the cows come home about how good a driver Jr. is. I am in the camp that he is a very good driver (other drivers also think jr. is pretty good). No one however can argue that he isn't one of the most popular Nascar drivers, ever.

[MJ_N_09]

I can't fault him for much. This year, he really stepped it up, and even led the points for a couple weeks. He's earned my respect, even though he had to be given everything HMS had to get back to the top tier.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Explain 19 wins however you want to. He doesn't deserve half the hype he is given, but he also doesn't deserve half the criticism.

This is correct. Noone really knows what to make of young Earnhardt. He gets worshipped with that Jr Nation idiocy, this backwash then creates haterz. It's hard to cut through the fog. He's a fine driver (albeit unusually fragile), a rank below a star like Johnson. He's had a strong year with a canny crew chief and it's a shame that his challenge has ended this way.

[mountainstar]

I don't follow Nascar week to week, so what exactly is going on with Dale Jr.?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Explain 19 wins however you want to. He doesn't deserve half the hype he is given, but he also doesn't deserve half the criticism.

I totally agree. He isn't his dad and we shouldn't expect him to be. 19 races, no matter where they were, is a large number of Cup races. Great drivers like Ricky Rudd, Jeff Burton, Geoff Bodine, Bobby and Terry Labonte (both series champs, Terry twice), Curtis Turner, Neil Bonnet, etc all won 15-20 races in their careers.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't follow Nascar week to week, so what exactly is going on with Dale Jr.?

He received a concussion in a testing crash about a month ago and has been suffering after effects. Supposedly, the crash last week aggravated the symptoms.

[Purist]

I don't think Dale Jr. is his father either. However, regarding the Hendrick thing, I could say that I would have expected more wins from Kahne, and especially Gordon, over the last few years as well.

The concussion issue is definitely a concern, and lest we forget, it hasn't been all that long since Brian Vickers had the hypoxia/carbon monoxide poisoning difficulties.

NASCAR has been less than attentive about a number of potentially major medical issues. I hope this is a wake-up call for those at the top.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

He'll always get a ride because of the mass market sponsorship opportunities that come with him, but his fanbase of Bubba and Betty-Lou is distinctly uncritical of their hero.

Hopefully one of the things that might come out of this will be that 'Bubba and Betty' change their opinions that a race isn't worth talking about if there isn't 'a big one'...

I agree that this is something that has been waiting to happen for a while though. Surely if I driver has a big enough hit to put them put out of the race then they should have to be checked over regardless of whether or not the driver gets what is left of their car back to the pits. Jnr might actually do Nascar a favour if he retires as their safety record over the years does seem to have a 'close the door after the horse has bolted' mentality.

[Paradise City]

Jr had a pre-existing head injury from a crash in Kansas.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103306

[Purist]

I don't think anybody is denying that, but the hit at Talladega, over a month later, was enough to aggravate it, if not cause another concussion entirely.

Cynic, many people just don't seem to be convinced of much of anything, even when the facts smack them over the head. They have "beliefs", and don't want to be swayed from those preconceptions.

[mrfizz]

F1 has a light on the car which comes on in the event of a crash that exerts a force greater than a set amount (sorry, can't remember the threshold). If that light comes on then the marshals see it and a medical crew is called, regardless of whether the driver appears injured or not. The driver then has to undergo rigorous tests to prove his fitness or otherwise. Perhaps Nascar should have the same?

[Jacques Rabbit]

A good article from Bob Pockrass about Fred Lorenzen's daughter and concussions.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nascar/s...anda-gardstrom