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28 Nov 2012, 22:30 (Ref:3172791) | #1 | |||
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Ferrari consider appealling Vettel's Championship
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638
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I can see that it could. Oh dear. Are we going to have another controversial championship win? |
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28 Nov 2012, 22:33 (Ref:3172793) | #2 | ||
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I'm sure I read on F1 Fanatic that this was completely quashed as a few of the members spotted a green flag (or a green on his dashboard indicating it wasn't a yellow flag section, or something).
Can't see this really happening, based on that. Selby |
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28 Nov 2012, 22:34 (Ref:3172794) | #3 | |
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Why not if there is a case to answer.
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28 Nov 2012, 22:36 (Ref:3172795) | #4 | ||
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I understand why they do it, but really... It'd be pretty crappy. What an anti-climax that'd be. Weeey, I am the 2012 champ afterall!
Selby |
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28 Nov 2012, 22:38 (Ref:3172798) | #5 | ||
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Not sure about that. I'm assuming the lights on his dash-board are the two lights on each side of his rev and gear-change figures. Both of those two lights are still on when he completes the move but goes off as soon as he passes the green light.
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28 Nov 2012, 22:55 (Ref:3172809) | #6 | ||
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According to BBC, Ferrari don't even need to appeal it. The FIA are apparently obliged to do it themselves.
I thought this was about the pass on Charles Pic which Pat Fry at Ferrari said was an oil flag. In fact this was completely different and if found guilty could result in a 20 second penalty, effectively demoting Vettel to eight place which could give Alonso the title...by one point. As an Alonso and Ferrari fan, I certainly don't want to see it won this way. But at the same time, Vettel sails incredibly close to the wind on his trangressions at times, especially this season. Lets hope it's found not to need investigation on this occasion. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:01 (Ref:3172812) | #7 | |
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I understood that you could not appeal stewards decisions?
Schumacher's overtake of Alonso as the track went to green and subsequent peanalty gave us that. Or am I confused, again? |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:05 (Ref:3172815) | #8 | ||
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Pretty conclusive evidence in this video that Vettel in deed did pass under yellow flag conditions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuMZzI8pOz4 What the FIA does is anybody's guess; remember what happened to Senna in Japan when he went through the runoff area only to be penalized for doing the right thing? I'm sure Bernie will make it go away. As I understand it no decision about the pass has been made by the FIA to date so an appeal or realization that there was an infraction can be reviewed by the FIA. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:11 (Ref:3172818) | #9 | ||
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If it's proved that there was a marshal waving a green flag then the case is flawed and the title remains with Vettel.
If however the FIA decide (and they need to do this by Friday) that they have sufficient evidence to impose a penalty then rules state a 20 second time penalty. That will be what does for SV if found guilty. Looking at the footage, I agree it's anyone's guess what the FIA wil do. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:13 (Ref:3172819) | #10 | |
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Light panels supplement flag signals. The green flag preceded the light panel - either driver's right exit T4 or driver's left along the straight, either way preceding the light panel.
The light *would not be on* if the up track flag was not green. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:15 (Ref:3172821) | #11 | |
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If one reads the article mentioned above there is a marshals post on the left after the third corner that is not visible from the on board camera. This post was displaying a green flag on the previous lap according to Andrew Benson.
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28 Nov 2012, 23:16 (Ref:3172822) | #12 | |
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Given it was a Toro Rosso he was passing it probably slammed on the brakes to wave Vettel past and there was nothing the young German could do but overtake the stricken Red Bull feeder.
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28 Nov 2012, 23:20 (Ref:3172825) | #13 | |
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Seems clear from the video that he did overtake under yellows so it will be interesting to see what happens
I don't agree that it's not right to look at this seriously now. If its deemed he did overtake under yellows he needs to get the appropriate penalty. However had this pass been spotted at the time and was penalised during the race Vettel would probably still have won the championship. Even if he was in 8th, Webber and Vergne would have moved over to give him his 6th place back |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:35 (Ref:3172831) | #14 | ||
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Quote:
The earlier question remains as to the review of stewards decisions post race. No decision to review is noted! A stewards penalty has to be applied within 7 laps? I think Knowlesy is right that the other car slammed on its brakes and the only way to avoid contact would be to overtake! At what point do you stop picking through every race of the season. Did Alonso cut a line in Australia? |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:38 (Ref:3172832) | #15 | ||
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The point to bear in mind is that it is the flags that are the key indicator as to whether a transgression has been made - the lights are there for information purposes. From the on board footage from Vettel's car, I don't think it is possible to see a green flag at any post; however, there must be one and should that flag be in advance of the overtake, then the pass is OK notwithstanding the lights displayed. A further point on this subject is that the lights and flag points are not always in the same place and certainly in the case of Silverstone, a light display may be covering more than one flag point. As such there may be some distance between a green flag and a light.
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28 Nov 2012, 23:41 (Ref:3172835) | #16 | ||
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If a Marshall is waving a green flag and the panel is saying yellow flag who's right? If race control sets the panel lights do they know more or less about the track conditions?
I'd imagine that a yellow flag would take presidence, whether or not the panel or corner worker was showing green flag conditions. If race control felt the track needed to stay yellow or a corner worker could see something that race control could not I would have to believe that a yellow flag would always take presidence. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:42 (Ref:3172836) | #17 | ||
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Pretty damning evidence. He certainly did pass under yellows according to the trackside and on-dash lights (which are the bits we can see in the video).
Potential excuses? The Toro Rosso slowed so abruptly that the only safe thing to do was pass him. This will require a look at the TR telemetry. Somehow, I doubt it. There was a green flag being shown which was not in agreement with the lights. This would be a bit of a cack-up on the marshalling front, but not inconceivable. Can it be shown to be the case, or not? Whichever way this finally goes, it is going to be a mess. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:50 (Ref:3172841) | #18 | ||
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just found this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVC83hKvjYE which shows that prior to the overtake, there is a green flag being waved from a raised marshals post, as the lights are there to suplemement the flags and there are many more flags than light boards, then the track goes green prior to the overtake and prior to the lightboard (and the cockpit lights) changing back to green. |
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28 Nov 2012, 23:51 (Ref:3172842) | #19 | ||
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Speculation from a flagger
Light boards don't always line up with stations, which means the person pushing the "yellow" button could be standing quite a distance away from the actual light panel. A yellow light or flag is followed by a green flag. So if there is a green flag waiving up stream from the incident that's required by rules. In fact, as a light board operator pushes the yellow button, the next station after it automatically goes flashing green, unless the light board operator there overrides it with a yellow light (assuming its necessary). Race control has the capability to override the marshals on stations. In Austin there was a yellow light activated from Race Control that was told to the marshal holding the light panel box, over comms. They can turn it on, they can turn it off based on what they see on camera. Typically they only control SC light and Red flag / light. As a flagger, we are told to watch and report passes under yellow condition. With FIA you can actually be summoned to France to give evidence/testimony that you observed a pass under yellow. This privilege apparently happens very infrequently. We are also told that once yellow flags or lights are activated, there is some time for the drivers to obey the condition. For example, it is not expected for a driver that is fighting for position to do anything unsafe when a yellow flag comes out - like slamming on brakes. When the driver is showing legitimate pace in overtaking, and overtaking has started, that overtaking may finish under the yellow flag. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out |
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29 Nov 2012, 01:24 (Ref:3172872) | #20 | |
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Yet another opportunity for F1 to, once again, shoot itself in the foot?
I have to hope that this has all been blown up out of all proportion by the 'Twitterati', and someone will eventually calm the situation. We can only hope. |
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29 Nov 2012, 02:16 (Ref:3172885) | #21 | |||
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Personally, I think that Ferrari would hurt their general image if they agitated about this (even if it was true). It's generally held that this year Alonso has been a star hauling around a relatively agricultural machine - add Domenicalli's quoted remarks saying Alonso should have won and then a protest on this and it'll make Ferrari look like sore losers with an ordinary car and churlish attitude to the wider world. I'm not even sure that they CAN protest this long after the race - used to be time limits on both protests and appeals but not sure if they're still in place. |
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29 Nov 2012, 02:23 (Ref:3172887) | #22 | |
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The actual season isn't over until they hand Vettel the trophy, and you can appeal now about something that happened at the race in Australia, AFAIK.
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29 Nov 2012, 02:29 (Ref:3172889) | #23 | |
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Pitpass also have a hold of this story, so it must be something approaching newsworthiness.
http://www.pitpass.com/48104-Ferrari...Vettel-protest Ferrari and/or the FIA have until Friday to make an official protest. Fingers crossed that they don't. |
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29 Nov 2012, 03:10 (Ref:3172901) | #24 | ||
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Someone could end up swimming with the fishes.
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29 Nov 2012, 03:20 (Ref:3172902) | #25 | ||
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F1 season aint' over until the lawyers get their cut
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