1st gen chevrolet Camaro grp 2 specs and details

[eb911]

Hi,

I am searching for any technical info on the 1st gen Camaro that ran in the ETCC and BTCC and in the 24 hours of Spa between 67 and 73.
I am especially looking for information/pictures on :
- Brakes (J56 or larger discs / calipers ?)
- Displacement (it seems the 1st gen Camaro ran in the 24 hours of Spa with 5L, 5.7L, 6.5L, 7 L engines)
- Alloy block used in period ?
- Alloy heads ?
- Carbs (Weber used in period or only Holley ?)
- Fender flares (width ?)
- Suspension setup

Some famous cars ran in the ETCC, BTCC in period. I think of Frank Gardner, Martin Thomas, Chris Tuerlinckx, Ivo Grauls, and many more.

Any information would be much appreciated.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by eb911

Hi,

I am searching for any technical info on the 1st gen Camaro that ran in the ETCC and BTCC and in the 24 hours of Spa between 67 and 73.
I am especially looking for information/pictures on :
- Brakes (J56 or larger discs / calipers ?)
- Displacement (it seems the 1st gen Camaro ran in the 24 hours of Spa with 5L, 5.7L, 6.5L, 7 L engines)
- Alloy block used in period ?
- Alloy heads ?
- Carbs (Weber used in period or only Holley ?)
- Fender flares (width ?)
- Suspension setup

Some famous cars ran in the ETCC, BTCC in period. I think of Frank Gardner, Martin Thomas, Chris Tuerlinckx, Ivo Grauls, and many more.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Welcome on board old son, its big Al you need to answer those questions.

(Take it easy on him Al, he's a first timer)

[Al Weyman]

Well I can catagourically tell you there were NO alloy blocks or heads produced by the factory for the small block engine (5.0 and 5.7) the big blocks I know less about but do know somehow Frank got an all alloy CanAm engine homologated although they only made 50 odd in a non factory garage, only sold half and the rest were broken but thats the crazyness of this period of motorsport which is still being clung to today which I find hard to fathom if honest. I have seen a so called FIA big block car that you could drive a horse and cart through its legality loopholes, it has an all alloy aftermarket block and heads yet it runs in Masters, go figure???? I believe they did homologate a small 11 inch disc with small 4 pot calipers on the first gen. Suspensions probably have the Guildstrade cheat on most of them not required on 2nd gen where factory did it for you. All the wishbones surely should be standard but not ideal geometry and 'legal' cars I have seen have been fitted with aftermarket stuff. Gearbox would be the Muncie M22 Rock Crusher although a T10 was also fitted from the factory, the Muncie is now available as a beefed up aftermarket one so thats probably widely used. Carbs from the factory could be the Gm 4 barrel which in fact is an often dismissed but apparently very good carb (name escapes me for the moment but I have a good one at home. No idea about fender flares if even allowed??? There is plenty room under arches I do know the Penske cars used to massarge them out a bit but kept the wheels under the original slightly stretched arches, look good that way anyhow! Just remembered name of carb, a Rochester. It has the advantage of a 750cfm flow but can be fitted on a small engine. BTW some dual set ups were also offered I believe but very very expensive and to be honest I believe a single is the way to go or webbers if allowed.

Come down to Brands this weekend for the Speedfest I can introduce you to some far more knowledgable people than me on the subject who dont post on here.

[eb911]

Al,

Thank you for the clarification. As for the fender flares, some pictures of 1st gen Camaro can be found on racingsportscars with wide fenders like Ivo Graul's Camaro in 24 hours of Spa in 1969. I guess if he had them in 69, they must be FIA legal.

[Al Weyman]

I have to confess I really dont know, personally I dont think you need them and they (a) look better without and (b) wont get 'rubbed' off! There is a lot of room under the arches. how big are you thinking of going with the wheels BTW. If it was me building the car I would go all iron small block. It can be built cheaply (the engine) and be reliable. The iron big block will give more power but at a serious weight penalty where you dont want it. To by a genuine Alloy Can Am engine that will pass the tests would cost an arm and a leg if you could ever find one as when they brock the 30 odd cars that didnt sell the engines went in CanAm cars. I have a space frame 2nd gen car in bits, an ex Penske IROC, now I know one of these raced in 1980 in the TransAm series and thus is elligible for the revived series and that has large fender flares. I will be making up some rear ones eventually, they were just pop rivitted on in period because of the 'rubbing'.

[eb911]

I agree, I would go for a small block as well. It seems the FIA homologated alloy heads, but I have to find the docs in which it is stated. As for the wheels, I really don't know but since I am going on the grp 2 route, I thought I'd do a car with the same specs as the ones seen back in the days. And as for me, I like the wide fenders.

[Al Weyman]

I am sure and have some articles somewhere they never made a small block alloy head or at least one that worked and by the factory and if so you will never find one so it will be an aftermarket one which wont (presumably in the crazy world of FIA racing) be legal but who knows, the alloy heads didnt appear till the corvette engine in the 80's. although the made a factory Phase 6 alloy head that can fit my 3rd gen car in the 80's I believe GM homologated these and the car but never raced it. Also they had something called a Pontiac head that you may want to research. I seriously doubt the heads were homologated for the Camaro 1st gen but prepared to be proved wrong. In fact would like to be!!!

[Stacy]

Al,

During my days as Competition Secretary way back when, and largely on the basis of what you said at the time and repeated here - I seem to recall walking to scrutineering with a view to excluding someone who we thought ran an alloy block, only to be stopped half way by another Camaro man (but unconnected to the person in question) who asked me where I was going. I told him, and he said; "Nah, perfectly acceptable to run an alloy block to the regs. I run one myself.".

"Ah..." Said I.

He later proved to be right I seem to recall..

Can't remember the detail, but it's worth bearing in mind it's not necessarily as clear cut I think.

S.

[soupdragon]

Hi
It might be an idea to start with getting FIA homologation papers for the car. I have three sets for the 67-69 Camaro: 5158, 5293 & 1449. The best papers to run to are the Z28 papers 1449; the rest are pretty standard cars. The better papers are for the Z28 5000cc cars, which is not the best engine to build. Generally, bigger is better with the small block.
The best set of papers is for the 2nd Gen Car, the 1970 Camaro, set number 5310. This is the car that ran a lot in the early seventies at Spa etc. These papers are truly sent from Heaven. GM obviously tried very hard with this car. Small & big Block engines homologated with dry sumps & tubular exhausts. Big Blocks in 7000 & 7500 cc in both iron & aluminium blocks. Multi plate clutches, big brakes, flares, Lightweight bodyshell. This car has got the lot. It's all on the papers & it all ran in period.
Good luck with your project. Pete

[eb911]

I have just spoken with a contact over the phone. He states that in the FIA homologation sheet 1449-66 (extension of homologation sheet for 67 Z28) it is mentioned :
Inlet manifold material - aluminium (used with optionnal aluminium cylinder head).

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by eb911

I have just spoken with a contact over the phone. He states that in the FIA homologation sheet 1449-66 (extension of homologation sheet for 67 Z28) it is mentioned :
Inlet manifold material - aluminium (used with optionnal aluminium cylinder head).

Cannot see an alloy head in 1449 which is for the 302 Cu In engine .
But the 5310 [1970 ] Gp 1 papers for the 427 engined car have a lot of Gp 2 stuff on including big [ 11.75 Inch ] vented discs , alloy heads , and an option for Rochester carb instead of the original Holley

[Alex E]

Gp 2 was not introduced until 1970, so anything before that would have been Group 5. Which as I remember allowed lightweight panels etc...not allowed in Gp 2 that followed.
alex

[apriliadriver]

I race a 1st Gen '69 Camaro in HSCC Historic Road Sports.

The info on brakes (courtesy period reprints borrowed from Roddie Fielden) is as follows :

• RPO J52 option : fronts discs/4-pot calipers; rear drums, 1967;
• RPO J56 option : as above, heavy duty option as fitted tyo cabs and police cars, also recorded in 1967;

By 1969 ...

• RPO J52 had become a front disc/single piston caliper option;

• RPO JL8 option : front-and-rear 11.75 inch dia discs, four piston calipers described as 'adapted from the Corvette' and fitted mainly to the Z28, although quoted as being fitted as a Regular Production Option (RPO) to some SS's.

As far as I can tell, homologation papers referred to the Camaro as raced in TransAm and would certainly have been with the 302 c.i. engine. There may well have been various COPO options which were very special racing-only stuff.

As I am a Chevy tyro, I cannot hold a candle to the knowledge of Al Weyman and Roddie Fielden, so please read the preceding stuff in that light.
Nick

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Alex E

Gp 2 was not introduced until 1970, so anything before that would have been Group 5. Which as I remember allowed lightweight panels etc...not allowed in Gp 2 that followed.
alex

The 1449 Homologation is for Gp2 in 1966

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

The 1449 Homologation is for Gp2 in 1966

Just done a quick check to confirm that a car had to be Homologated into Gp 2 [ 1000 made ] in that era before it could be then used in Gp 5/6 where there was a lot more freedom to use special parts .

[eb911]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Cannot see an alloy head in 1449 which is for the 302 Cu In engine .
But the 5310 [1970 ] Gp 1 papers for the 427 engined car have a lot of Gp 2 stuff on including big [ 11.75 Inch ] vented discs , alloy heads , and an option for Rochester carb instead of the original Holley

My contact has confirmed that in the extensio nof the 1449 sheet in it written :"Head - Cylinder - Material - cast iron or aluminium optionnal - PN (AL) 3965706"

Does someone has a copy of 1449 ? Also if some mods are allowed for the 5 liter cars, does it mean you can bring them on the 5.7 L for instance ?

Also, regarding the minimum weight, I have been told around 1200 Kg. Are the fiberglass panels allowed, as well as perpex windows all around except windshield ?

[Al Weyman]

If they had homologated an aluminium head I would have used them on my car for the last 8 years racing with CTCRC!! I am certain sure no such item was ever successfully produced for the SBC until the late 70's or early 80's. I am busy preparing my car for Brands Speedfest this weekend but when done and I have a few minutes I will dig out an article on pre prduction alloy heads and blocks but I am sure this was late 70's and they had big pre production problems and the project was shelved. There are loads of aftermarket heads out there in alloy including the GM Phase 6's that fit the first gen engine but I dont think this will satisfy the FIA if fitted, it should thats my argument and always has been but there you go. The off road iron head produced by GM and used in competition is the Phase 1, 2 or 3 I have a pair of 3's at home I have damaged one but will repair it as I want to fit them to the factory sponsored IROC when I build it. I also have an original Traco modified phase 1 head that was fitted to this car and trust me its iron and if alloy had have been available I am sure GM would have fitted them and this car was built in 1977. The good news is the GM Phase 3's are available over the counter and I am sure would satisfy the most stringent FIA scrut. They are about £900 a pair from Summit or JEGS or Real Steel will probably import you a set. They are also a good head and with a bit of work flow well.

I think you will need perspex and fibreglass to get anywhere near 1200kgs with a modern steel cage fitted. Whether legal or not I really dont know. I have just fitted a fibre hood for the weekend and I recon with the alloy heads but steel and glass I will get to about 1250

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Stacy

Al,

During my days as Competition Secretary way back when, and largely on the basis of what you said at the time and repeated here - I seem to recall walking to scrutineering with a view to excluding someone who we thought ran an alloy block, only to be stopped half way by another Camaro man (but unconnected to the person in question) who asked me where I was going. I told him, and he said; "Nah, perfectly acceptable to run an alloy block to the regs. I run one myself.".

"Ah..." Said I.

He later proved to be right I seem to recall..

Can't remember the detail, but it's worth bearing in mind it's not necessarily as clear cut I think.

S.

Incorrect, he should have been excluded unless in Classic Thunder and even then with a genuine Can Am engine not a World Products or whatever block. I really fail to understand this FIA thing, now are they allowing aftermarket stuff or not???

Also as i prevously stated the Big Block I believe did have the alloy options, I was referring to the Small Block which didnt.

[eb911]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Just done a quick check to confirm that a car had to be Homologated into Gp 2 [ 1000 made ] in that era before it could be then used in Gp 5/6 where there was a lot more freedom to use special parts .

But the 1st Gen Camaro were raced in grp 2 in International races ruled by the FIA Group 2 regulations such as the 24 hours of Spa and the RAC TT in which wide fenders 1st Gen Camaro can be seen : Chris Tuerlinckx (in Spa 1969 and 1970), Brian Muir in the 71 RAC TT to name a few. In both cases the car seemed to have back wheels much wider than the maximum 9 inches stated by the 1449 FIA papers.

Picture of the 1969 Spa 24 Hours : http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/p%201969%20Spa.html

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by eb911

But the 1st Gen Camaro were raced in grp 2 in International races ruled by the FIA Group 2 regulations such as the 24 hours of Spa and the RAC TT in which wide fenders 1st Gen Camaro can be seen : Chris Tuerlinckx (in Spa 1969 and 1970), Brian Muir in the 71 RAC TT to name a few. In both cases the car seemed to have back wheels much wider than the maximum 9 inches stated by the 1449 FIA papers.

Picture of the 1969 Spa 24 Hours : http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/p%201969%20Spa.html

Gp 1 regs did not allow much other than showroom spec . But Gp 2 regs allowed a lot of freedoms under Appendix J of the period .
Carbs , exhausts , extra suspension links etc were all free until the changes in Appendix J rules of 1975/6.
Wheels were also free up to sizes [ based on capacity ] in Appendix J .
Just from memory 2 Ltr cars could run up to 11.5 inches wide , and 2 inches larger diameter .
I have several sets of Homologation papers for the Camero,s . PM me with your Email & which papers you want and I will see if I have them .

[Al Weyman]

You can get an 11" wheel under the rear arch so how wide do you want to go?

[eb911]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

You can get an 11" wheel under the rear arch so how wide do you want to go?

You're right, 11'' is more than enough, even if I suspect the Brits Camaro had much larger back wheels. It's just that if these cars did ran the FIA events they did, they must have been homologated at some point. And these events were ruled by grp 2 FIA regulations. So they must be grp 2 legal, but it doesn't seem to be that easy. That is what I don't get with the FIA.

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by eb911

Hi,

I am searching for any technical info on the 1st gen Camaro that ran in the ETCC and BTCC and in the 24 hours of Spa between 67 and 73.
I am especially looking for information/pictures on :
- Brakes (J56 or larger discs / calipers ?)
- Displacement (it seems the 1st gen Camaro ran in the 24 hours of Spa with 5L, 5.7L, 6.5L, 7 L engines)
- Alloy block used in period ?
- Alloy heads ?
- Carbs (Weber used in period or only Holley ?)
- Fender flares (width ?)
- Suspension setup

Some famous cars ran in the ETCC, BTCC in period. I think of Frank Gardner, Martin Thomas, Chris Tuerlinckx, Ivo Grauls, and many more.

Any information would be much appreciated.

I am coming in on this thread a bit late so many apologies if repeating on any posts -

• Seems to be some confusion in some posts between what GM did or not make or fit to cars in period , and what was actually homologated....two different things.

• Aluminium blocks - the ZL1 aluminium was produced in period, and incidentally has been remanufactured by GM in recent years, but I think was only homologated for certain Corvettes (C3 etc onwards) and as another post suggests, maybe the 2nd generation Camaro.

• I originally owned and commissioned the build of the blue '69 camaro that Al Weyman refers to - it was never built to or intended to be anywhere near Appendix K - but did have the only 'new' ZL1 aluminium block in the UK fitted - later sold to Pete Hallford, then sold on to david Edwards.

• For first generation Camaros I understand best set of homologation papers is the one allowing the 350 cube / 5,740 litre engine - not the 302 / 5 litre - so as to get best power and combination of other goodies through the extensions to the papers.

• To answer your question - I don't know about the fender flares allowed. There are many photos of second gen' Camaros racing in period with the big flares e.g Stuart Graham in the Brut sponsored car.

• For the first gen Camaros that raced over here in period I believe that one of them, the Wiggins Teape / Castrol sponsored car driven my Brian Muir , started life as a Penske built Trans-Am car ( actually this one was built as a back up car for the '68 Trans Am) hence all the mods - but not big fender flares , only the subtle (or perhaps not so subtle) massaging of the panels. [The Penske cars are well documented so won't bore everyone with the spec'] The car ran in the saloon Car Championship in the UK, but don't know where else , if at all, in Europe.

• As other posts suggest , if building to homlogation then stick to one set of papers.

• I have seen photos of first gen Camaros racing with all sorts of wide wheels and flares but if memory serves me correctly they were all in the USA - for instance several privateers carried on campaigning first gen cars at Sebring (12 hrs), and other races, up to the late 1970s with various modifications the most obvious ones being big wheels/tyres + flares.

• Hope they won't mind if mentioning by name here but there are some very knowledgeable people here in UK who have either owned historically important Camaros or built and raced them : Jeff Barley, Bill Withey, Pete Hallford

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by eb911

My contact has confirmed that in the extensio nof the 1449 sheet in it written :"Head - Cylinder - Material - cast iron or aluminium optionnal - PN (AL) 3965706"

Does someone has a copy of 1449 ? Also if some mods are allowed for the 5 liter cars, does it mean you can bring them on the 5.7 L for instance ?

Also, regarding the minimum weight, I have been told around 1200 Kg. Are the fiberglass panels allowed, as well as perpex windows all around except windshield ?

As I am sure others will tell you , when it comes to App K and homologation papers you have to chose one set of papers, then stick to it and build the car to that spec'. You cannot cherry pick the best bits from three different homologation papers (unfortunately!!)

[eb911]

For the sake of clarification I will try to post few pictures of the fender flares 21st Gen Camaro in FIA events.

Most pictures are taken from the excellent site of Frank de Jong, I hope he doesn't mind I post some of them here.

Spa 1969 ETCC (from http://touringcarracing.net)



Zolder 1970 ETCC (from http://touringcarracing.net)


Frank Gardner's camaro (Can't find the copyright, sorry)


1970 International Trophy (copyright Mike Hayward)


1972 - Brno ETCC (Copyright, Rudolph Fried)


1973 - Brno ETCC (Copyright, Rudolph Fried)