Mazda CART Engine in 2003?

SevenGrain · 13 Mar 2002, 19:16 (Ref:234447)

Officials at Cosworth Engineering have revealed that they intend to have a 2003 spec CART engine track-ready by October with the intention of supplying six to eight cars in 2003.

The engine will not be badged as Ford, but many sources are reporting that it will most likely be badged Mazda. Recall that Mazda recently purchased the naming rights to Laguna Seca. Mazda also has a racing heritage, having won at LeMans in 1991.

If Honda indeed returns in 2004 as expected, there will be three Japanese companies competing in CART.

Having Cosworth back in the fold, with Judd and TWR in the wings, and Toyota returning, the controversy over a lack of engines in CART appears to be over.

paulzinho · 13 Mar 2002, 22:09 (Ref:234588)

So does this mean that CART isn't dead after all?

enemy-ace · 13 Mar 2002, 22:47 (Ref:234615)

CART is to good of a series to die! I would love to see Mazda represented in CART, having just bought one and being extremely happy with it. It's a little Monster!

philneast · 13 Mar 2002, 23:14 (Ref:234638)

Will the Mazda be a rotary engine like their Le Mans winning effort?

swregor · 14 Mar 2002, 03:35 (Ref:234735)

Can't be, it has to confirm to CART spec. It'll be a Mazda badged Cosworth

StuiE · 14 Mar 2002, 09:58 (Ref:234867)

would luv a rota CART engine!

OVERSTEER · 14 Mar 2002, 22:42 (Ref:235328)

On the Spec of the engines for 2003, It's a 3.5 ltr NA Engine, but how many Cylinders?

SevenGrain · 14 Mar 2002, 23:05 (Ref:235350)

Eight

macdaddy · 15 Mar 2002, 09:37 (Ref:235550)

Watching Monterrey on SpeedVision and I noticed that the running order that scrolled across the top of the screen was sponsored by Mazda. I thought that strange. And every commercial break contained a GoodYear commercial. I'm not reading anything into that, though.

Muzza · 18 Mar 2002, 03:20 (Ref:238043)

I'm sorry for slowing down your enthusiasm but...

1.) Mazda has been the major Laguna Seca sponsor for a number of years already, so this is nothing new. Mazda even has a long standing partnership with the local driving school. I also understand they are helping to pay part of the bill for the circuit overhauling works (at last the paddock and the boxes will be replaced!). Do not expect a corporate involvement with CART, though. They sponsor the circuit, not the category.

2.) Mazda is owned by Ford. It is very unlikely, to say the least, that Ford would allow two of its brands to compete in the same category, such as CART.

3.) Mazda has been in financial turmoil for some years (actually it has improved lately). They cut their motorsport investments quite significantly - not to say that they have zeroed it altogether. Even the support to Jim Downing's Kudzus (lovely sportscars run by a lovely team) has shrunk.

4.) Having said all this, I would have loved to see a rotary engine in CART car. Did any of you ever witness a Kudzu screaming down past long straight Sebring, with the whole gas exhaust set ablaze? Those engines shook my lungs off the first time I heard one, in Le Mans '98... And still do the same. What a fantastic noise.

Cheers,

Muzza

SevenGrain · 18 Mar 2002, 13:48 (Ref:238372)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza

2.) Mazda is owned by Ford. It is very unlikely, to say the least, that Ford would allow two of its brands to compete in the same category, such as CART.

Mazda and Ford would not be competing, Mazda would replace Ford on the Cosworth engine. Actually Ford is said to be reconsidering and may indeed put their own name on the engine. This story is not over yet...

4.) Having said all this, I would have loved to see a rotary engine in CART car. Did any of you ever witness a Kudzu screaming down past long straight Sebring, with the whole gas exhaust set ablaze? Those engines shook my lungs off the first time I heard one, in Le Mans '98... And still do the same. What a fantastic noise.[/QUOTE]

A rotary engine is not on the table, CART's 03 engine rules call for a 3.5 litre normally aspirated engine. Cosworth is building the engine, it just remains to be seen which one of Ford's passenger car companies put their name on it.

Muzza · 18 Mar 2002, 14:10 (Ref:238393)

Hello, SevenGrain,

Sorry, I misread your words - I thought someone had cogitated the possibility of having another engine on parade, besides Ford (or Cosworth, or whatever it will be called).

I read some days ago (Speed Channel?) that the engine could be even badged Mercury - well, I hope this does NOT happen! (laughing).

Maybe Mazda would go along with their "Zoom Zoom" marketing campaign - is Ford going to market Mazda as a "sportier" brand now?

On a purely conjectural approach: yes, the new CART book calls for a 3.5 aspirated engine, but are rotary engines ruled out? I know that rotary engines are not allowed in Formula 1, but I am not sure about CART. However, I have some reserves about how competitive a non-turbo rotary engine would be... Also, there would be quite some stir about the equivalency between the volumetric displacement of rotary and piston engines... Well, this is just a conjecture, as I said.

Cheers,

Muzza

Laagri · 18 Mar 2002, 16:45 (Ref:238495)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
2.) Mazda is owned by Ford. It is very unlikely, to say the least, that Ford would allow two of its brands to compete in the same category, such as CART.

I may well be mistaken on two counts here, but:
a) doesn't Ford own Volvo?
b) didn't Ford and Volvo compete in the BTCC at the same time two or three years ago?

Not that this is relevant to CART of course, I was just wondering if my memory has survived the long winter over here!

Muzza · 18 Mar 2002, 20:54 (Ref:238710)

Hello, Laagri,

Yes, I have also seen many times companies from the same group fighting (with and without quotes) in the same category.

Recent examples are:

- Audi and Bentley in Le Mans 2001 (both Volkswagen group). Porsche, also a Volkswagen company, of course dominates the GT class in the same race, but that's a different game. Porsche may, though, come back to Le Mans in 2004, when the rules change;

- Citroen and Peugeot (both PSA group) in World Rally;

- Skoda and Seat (both Volkswagen group) in rallies (Seat significantly trimmed down their program after 2000).

However, these are exceptions. Even in the past, this would rarely happen.

In today's corporate world, with a few companies dominating global markets and all of them aiming to increase shareholder value (what, if you dare, you may translate at "profit at any cost"), there are less and less cases like these above.

As per that ABBA song (and I freaking hate ABBA), "money, money, money, (...), it's a business world".

Cheers,

Sal

mac · 18 Mar 2002, 22:23 (Ref:238789)

I didn't think VW owned Porsche. They share a lot of info and stuff (Porsche Cayenne), but I thought they were separate entities.

Muzza · 19 Mar 2002, 01:18 (Ref:238887)

Hello, Mac,

I oversimplified the issue of ownership - actually the share distribution of any major company is a very complex web of holdings, parent companies, co-allocated shares, preferred/nominal shares and so forth - but to put in very simple words, Porsche is a member of the Volkswagen group, and the guys in Wolfsburg (VW's headquarters) do decide what the folks in Stuttgart do.

And this happen even if NOMINALLY most of the Porsche shares are not in the hands of VW - because the shares are owned by someone who is owned by someone who is owned by someone and so on. And by the end of the day, Wolfsburg makes the calls.

Well, I guess I should go back to the original question - which brand would Ford use?

- Jaguar is in F1;
- would Lincoln be strenghtened in the sportscar arena, as a counterpoint to Caddy?
- Ford itself?
- a "sportier" Mazda for CART?
- call it simply Cosworth? (I don't think so, no marketing benefits, and these are guys that have got "da money");
- but, please don't call it a Mercury!

Cheers,

Muzza

The Accomplice · 19 Mar 2002, 23:51 (Ref:239760)

Ford's official PR towards motorsport is:

Formula 1 - Jaguar
Touring cars - Volvo
Sports cars - Aston Martin
Rallying - Ford Motor Company

Where this will fit in with CART remains to be seen, but with the policy being Ford do not support circuit racing I can't see the engine being Ford backed.

Lee Janotta · 20 Mar 2002, 01:45 (Ref:239822)

Ford, of course, is also involved in a little thing called NASCAR, and has competed many times in touring cars and sports car prototypes.

I'd say Volvo and Mazda are the likely brands for the new Cosworth engine. Mazda is a _very_ sporty brand, with a history of success in sports cars. But being part of Ford, and being known for their rotaries, which are outlawed or severly handicapped in most series, they're basically left with no place to compete.

Volvo, of course, can build on their engineering reputation by having their badge on a CART engine, like Nissan's Infiniti brand in the IRL. Plus, they're a very international brand, in an increasingly international series.

Mercury is a long shot at best. Even Ford doesn't know what to do with that brand!

Some of the Ford engines in sports car racing are badged as Lincolns... But the brand really has _no_ sport in their image, and it would take a _lot_ more than a CART engine program to change that. Gods, Buick is generally viewed as a more exciting brand!

Rob Buhl · 21 Mar 2002, 06:29 (Ref:240621)

Word on the street is that Ford may be supplying up to four cars in the Indy Racing League. I've heard that they intend to compete in 2004, however we may see them as early as next season. It would be great if Ford supplied motors to both series due to the commonality of the specs, but they [Ford] stated the two series would only share the same bottom end and the development costs for two "different" powerplants is substantial.

Incidentally, Ford would indeed like to compete against GM (Chevy), contrary to what many believe.

SevenGrain · 21 Mar 2002, 21:38 (Ref:241112)

I have heard this too Rob, Although when I spoke with the folks at Cosworth they were pretty adamant that the engine was being built specifically built for the Fed Ex Series. However, no deals have been signed as of yet.

I have also heard that the engine might be badged Ford in the IRL and Mazda in CART. We shall see...

SevenGrain · 21 Mar 2002, 21:39 (Ref:241113)

And I agree that Ford would indeed like to compete with GM. especially for a little Indy honor...

rollhoop · 22 Mar 2002, 00:21 (Ref:241234)

Any way it goes it will still be a Ford Motor Compay engine. Does the name really matter? I don't think they are going to make an IndyRotary. Is that even possible by the rules????

Lee Janotta · 22 Mar 2002, 03:02 (Ref:241294)

No. # of cylinders, block dimensions, etc, are all controlled under IRL rules. A rotary would be totally illegal. As I mentioned, rotaries are outlawed most everywhere except sports cars and spec series, though can run one in SCCA Formula Atlantic, but with a performance handicap.

Lee Janotta · 22 Mar 2002, 03:18 (Ref:241302)

No. # of cylinders, block dimensions, etc, are all controlled under IRL rules. A rotary would be totally illegal. As I mentioned, rotaries are outlawed most everywhere except sports cars and spec series, though can run one in SCCA Formula Atlantic, but with a performance handicap.

Speed Demon · 28 Mar 2002, 21:18 (Ref:246173)

Ford also, of course, goes head to head with a GM subsidiary in the Aussie V8Supercars...

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