WTF is going on?

Rambo · 19 Jun 2002, 13:11 (Ref:316940)

CART is now a one-make series. Lola-Ford, with Firestone tyres. It may as well be F3000. But why the hell did they **** Honda off with that NA BS if they were considering staying with turbos? And why keep saying you're going to change the rules and then changing your mind? WTF? Was it all just a plot to get rid of the Japanese engines? And the idea of going to IRL chassis didn't exactly help Reynard out, did it?

Was this Cosworth NA engine mythical? Were they really working on a secret new turbo with CART's blessing? You have to wonder, don't you?

MaxSport · 19 Jun 2002, 18:46 (Ref:317076)

CART was trying to have common rules with the IRL so that their teams could race at Indy. When TG made that impossible, Pook did what he had to.

I think that many CART fans would rather have Lola-Fords than IRL cars or engines.

The lower price point and financial support package mean that the current teams should stay on and new teams may appear.

Perhaps having CART go away would have been better than becoming a latter day F-5000 series?

KM

Jay · 19 Jun 2002, 19:28 (Ref:317109)

Nah, even with the proposed formula it will still be the fastest open-wheel series in the world with some of the best drivers giving some of the best racing for the money.

Besides, I imagine once Cart reestablishes itself it will have offers from other manufacturers to enter the series. According to Pook he already has almost enough teams guaranteed for next year, some are new I think.

Bizzo5000 · 19 Jun 2002, 20:16 (Ref:317143)

This is 100x better than going with the IRL package they wanted to. Could you imagine an IRL engine trying to make it up the hills of Mid-Ohio? Now with CART buying the engines off Cosworth and then selling to the teams at a cheaper price, this will keep more teams in and also bring in new ones. After next year, more engines will be knocking on the door, begging to be let in(like the ousted Audi? in fact, there are some rumblings of a Porsche entry in the next few years). This is the best decision they could make considering the alternatives. How could they even think about cow-towing to that series? Has anyone seen the stands in one of those races? Not even close to 1/2 full. I jumped for joy when I heard they were keeping turbo, no really, I looked like an idiot doing it. Now I'll be able to hear my beloved high pitched turbo whine I dream about every night. God do I need a life.

f1manoz · 20 Jun 2002, 00:48 (Ref:317268)

I think it's a good decision to assure the stability of the series in the next couple of years.

Lee Janotta · 20 Jun 2002, 01:36 (Ref:317276)

I think they've killed any credibility they ever had with manufacturers. _But_, the one-make format will be just fine in my opinion. A true driver's championship.

CART's biggest problems are their financial structure. They _never_ should have gone public. If anything kills CART, it'll be their stock price.

What's so bad about F5000?

As I said in a previous thread, if CART does die, there'll be a new series to fill the vaccuum almost immediatly. The market's small compared to NASCAR, but way too big to remain untapped for any length of time.

MaxSport · 20 Jun 2002, 02:17 (Ref:317289)

Nothing was so bad about F-5000. My question was did other think it would be better to go away than become like F-5000. (roadraces with Lolas and spec engines)

GoFaster · 20 Jun 2002, 03:03 (Ref:317306)

I wonder if this may happen? Let's say when the Cosworth/CART deal expires in two years,TG has a plan in place to have the IRL running turbos.At that time ,he invites Cosworth to the league,who I'm sure would love some compitition.Then sprinkle in a couple of road courses and CART is history. This probably won't happen,but who knows .Any thoughts on this ?

mac · 20 Jun 2002, 05:22 (Ref:317327)

Can't see any of the above happening.

Can't see turbos in IRL.

Can't see Cosworth being interested.

Can't see road courses in the "round and round the merry go round" series.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 08:29 (Ref:317380)

I have no problem at all with keeping turbos and ignoring IRL chassis. But 'stability' can hardly be the priority when their chop-change rulemaking has alienated Honda, left Reynard in the cold and now got rid of Toyota as well.

"Stability" doesn't entail changing your rules every two months. Stability is something like the F1 concorde agreement where rules are stabilised for several years, allowing manufacturers and teams to plan ahead, rather than dump projects for fear they would be a waste of money with the projected rule change, only to find out the rules aren't changing, or the new rules aren't what they said they were going to be!

That doesn't sound stable to me.

Turbos? Good.

Cheaper costs? Good. Means more cars - giving points down to 12th was OK when there were 24 or 26 starters, but seems silly when there are 18 starters!

One make series should make it equal. But does it, really? CART is prety equal anyway. Often it's a bit of luck, a yellow at the right time, or getting a clear qualifying lap that sorts out races these days. And the teams who have been running Lola-Ford for a couple of seasons have an advantage from their data.

The commentator as much as said CART are going to be paying teams to compete! That is a sad mark of the popularity of a series that once rivalled F1. Now it's losing out to it's own b*stard child!

I'm sorry, but CART management want a kick up the arse, they really do.

Kneifel was hopeless. They pushed out Penske. They ****ed off Honda. They've got rid of Toyota. They've gone grovelling to TG and he's sent them on their way like the lowly beggars they've become. And you know what? I can't really blame him.

f1manoz · 20 Jun 2002, 08:50 (Ref:317405)

Honda was leaving no matter what avenue CART decided to take for the future. The main reason for their interest in the IRL is the Indy 500, they want to win that. Do you think they actually care about the series? Ha!

With all these manufacturers wanting to join the IRL, that will push up costs. And knowing how most of the teams in the IRL operate on shoe-string budgets, many of those teams will have to be continuously bailed out.

CART hasn't been stable for a while BUT now IT IS. They've got a stable rules package. Reynard hasn't been left out in the cold, Reynard is a dead duck. It's in receivership and I doubt it will be back. The Cosworth deal is a good one and will be fair, plus will maintain the CART boards view on keeping the sport relatively cheap.

Penske wasn't pushed. Penske decided to leave, as did Honda and Toyota. CART have made these decisions on the basis that all these manufacturers had decided to pull out. I say nuts to them for making that decision.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 09:39 (Ref:317435)

Hang on. Honda said they were thinking of quitting when we had the 'pop-off' incident. Then they said they wouldn't build a NA engine. If they're wanting to go into the '500 (and quite honestly, I don't know why - it's usually one of the most boring races of the year and 500 milers are nothing special these days) they'll have to build a NA engine anyhoo.

*walks away scratching his head*

f1manoz · 20 Jun 2002, 10:37 (Ref:317480)

I think it was just political games by Honda. They were trying to influence CART too much and CART probably thought 'Hang on, who runs this bloody show?'

It's Hondas loss that they wanted to leave.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 10:43 (Ref:317486)

Just seems awfully dubious to me. Soon as Honda are out, suddenly every team is signed up for the new Cosworth Turbo for 2 years...

BootsOntheSide · 20 Jun 2002, 12:14 (Ref:317554)

CART have certainly been brave with this decision, sticking to what made their series great. I hope the suggestion of new teams ready to race for 2003 is true. But it's interesting the way now loads of big name manufacturers are entering the IRL. This increasingly will push the costs up and alienate the teams Tony allegedly set the IRL up for.

f1manoz · 20 Jun 2002, 12:18 (Ref:317555)

The move of manufacturers may end up killing the IRL (good!) because the teams simply don't have the money. Honda and Toyota will certainly want money, and lots of it. Looks like TG may be spending more of his money to keep the series alive.

paul-collins · 20 Jun 2002, 12:21 (Ref:317558)

Quote:

Originally posted by Rambo
Hang on. Honda said they were thinking of quitting when we had the 'pop-off' incident. Then they said they wouldn't build a NA engine. If they're wanting to go into the '500 (and quite honestly, I don't know why - it's usually one of the most boring races of the year and 500 milers are nothing special these days) they'll have to build a NA engine anyhoo.

So what exactly did Honda mean when they said they wouldn't build a NA engine anyway? Obviously they were bluffing and CART called them on it. They walked away from CART anyway. They just didn't want anyone to think that they were the quitters, wanted to make it look like CART had pushed them. But 6 months after declaring no interest in building lo-tech NA engines, they announce they're going to the IRL?

StuiE · 20 Jun 2002, 12:43 (Ref:317580)

So that means Derrick Walker's Reynards arent allowed to race next year?

after thinking about this formula for a while, i suppose its a good thing, even if i have to look at those Lolas all the time

gaines · 20 Jun 2002, 14:09 (Ref:317645)

Personally I’m happy with CART’s decision to stay with turbo charged engines. That engine is what makes a champ car a champ car. I’ve been very upset with the way the sport’s top racing series has been managed and Chris Pook looks to be the man to finally put a stop to the madness and put CART back where it needs to be. Listen, CART’s television package is a disaster, we all know that but SPEED has done a very good job of covering the action and promoting the series. Let’s face it, there isn’t a whole lot of room on network television that isn’t already taken up by either NASCAR or the IRL. CBS is the only network available and they will not pay for CART racing until it cleans up it’s act. The decision made by CART to stay turbo charged is a step in the right direction.
Seeing Honda and Toyota leave the ranks has been tough to take but CART is one series that doesn’t need several manufacturer’s to survive short term, long term every series needs it so that the competition for a better engine creates just that, but for a few years they should be fine. Racing is what has made CART great over the years and that should be CART’s top focus now that they are beginning to recruit new teams and stabilize the series to keep the current teams in tact. Losing Penske last year was a big hit. We lost our Champion and our most marketable young star and we can’t afford to lose Target-Ganassi or Team Green or both as has been speculated. Six cars and arguably six of the top drivers in open wheel racing would leave with those cars. The one thing that CART has always maintained is the quality and integrity of the on-track product. Losing those two racing teams would be devastating to the quality of the series, much more so than losing manufacturers.
Now that CART has finally woken up and moved away from partnering with the IRL it can continue to move forward. The IRL is a disaster but poor management within CART has allowed the IRL to gain an undeserved advantage. The Indy 500 will always give the IRL coverage with ABC but where CART can surge past the IRL is with marketing and CART has done a poor job of that over the years. Why is it so hard, in a culture that is in love with motorsports, to market the most challenging, evenly-matched and by far the best open wheel racing series in the world? There are no CART toys or games that compete with NASCAR’s line and that’s what you need if you want to interest young people. How is it that TARGET racing has been the most successful team in the series over the past ten years yet you can’t find a single champ car die-cast, t-shirt, hat or poster in a Target store? K-mart was the same way before they had the Chapter 13 problems.
In my opinion marketing is the biggest problem that faces CART now that the management issues have been taken care of. That includes the problems with the stock and the manufacturers, engines, etc. A realistic, top quality computer game would be a huge step to get racing fans interested. Don’t believe me? Consider this. Six years ago I didn’t know squat about hockey. I bought a hockey game for the Sega genesis and through playing that game quickly learned the rules, the different qualities of the game as well as different strategies. Today I go to roughly three NHL games a year as well as a few college games and I still love the sport, second only to auto racing. NASCAR’s rise to the top also has had a lot to do with their computer games. Through their PC games I learned a ton about different setups at different tracks, what it means to race at those tracks, the difference in racing a flat or banked track, etc. Throw in the fact that you can customize a paint scheme for your car and race it online against others in league competition is amazing. CART could easily do the same thing but in the past the product of CART games have been horrible compared to NASCAR. I want to race Laguna Seca, Portland and Mid-Ohio in a simulated champ car so bad I can’t stand it but if it isn’t realistic don’t bother.
Lastly, CART needs a premiere race. NASCAR has Daytona, IRL has INDY, CART has…? CART needs to push one of it’s American races as it’s premiere race. Why an American race? Because America is where the big money television packages are and it needs a big attraction race to get it interested. ABC doesn’t give two squats about the IRL separated from the INDY 500. Granted the IRL has had some close finishes in recent years but IRL oval racing is dreadfully awful and the sound of those engines. Ugh! I’m surprised they get the small number of fans they do get at those races. The only reason INDY attracts the crowds is because it’s INDY. Tony George will always have a place in American auto-racing as long as he has that race and he doesn’t want to play ball with CART, he wants to destroy CART. So let’s make it a point to build our own marquee race. I would push Laguna Seca as the race of races in CART. Why? Because there’s a huge party atmosphere surrounding that race and the West Coast is still mostly untapped by motorsports compared to the East Coast. CART could easily become the region’s favorite series if marketed right and big money corporations would be happy to get behind another big time American race. Southern California boasts the second largest market in the United States and CART thrives there. You don’t think some IRL teams wouldn’t think about trying to enter the Laguna Seca race if the purse were in the millions? Marketing can bring that kind of money to a premiere race and money is still what drives racing.
We can talk engines all we want but it’s the quality of our product and the marketing of that product that will bury the IRL, not Cosworth, Honda or Toyota. We’re already making strides on F1 across the world because our series is exciting and you don’t know who might get the checkers on any given race day. Compare that to F1 where four drivers have a realistic chance and the rest are also rans and the world is realizing that there is more to quality auto-racing than that. When CART does with marketing what Wally Dallenbach Sr. has done with the product and Pook is now doing with the management we will see CART rise quickly. It will happen eventually, it’s just a matter of time.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 14:27 (Ref:317653)

It isn't just TV is it though? Look at the number of people who were at Pike's Peak the other day and compare that to the crowds at the last couple of CART ovals. Teams, tracks and fans are all leaving CART for the IRL.

What I can't understand is why. Penske and the last 3 Indy 500s have shown that CART is in a league above the IRL. Why are these people going to see poorer quality racing? How many lead changes were there at Pike's Peak? Or even Texas? Compare that to Michigan or California these last 2 years and there's no comparison at all.

Yet the road and street circuits where there is a dearth of passing is where the CART crowds are at. I went to Long Beach this year and the place was heaving - but passes were non-existant. I watched Dario try to pass someone for about 10 laps on the trot and not manage to get more than his front wheels level with the other fella's rears. Laguna Seca this year was a farce. One of the most exciting racetracks in the world, but where was the action, the overtaking attempts? The atmosphere may be great, but the racing was lousy.

It isn't just about keeping the teams solvent and happy if you've no fans interested!

gaines · 20 Jun 2002, 14:55 (Ref:317662)

One of the reasons IRL is starting to grow is that it has packaged itself with NASCAR in many circustances. It has tried to make itself the NASCAR of open wheel racing. Plus it has American drivers. I like Sam Hornish Jr. for instance because he's from Defiance, Ohio, not that far from where I live. CART is losing attendance in some venues because of the perception that CART is folding. Penske left, Honda left, Toyota left, rumors of other top teams leaving, well documented management problems, a poor television package as well as the Texas fiasco that CART got the blame for in the media instead of the track and losing the Michigan race to the IRL make CART look like a failing series. The street circuits and midwest road courses are always going to do well because there isn't anything that comes close to it in those areas. CART has got to make up ground in the media and market their series in a way that is attractive to Americans. The need a few more American drivers and they need to find a way to compete with the IRL's NASCAR partnership. The IRL is being given a chance by the American racing fan right now. Do they have the product to hold those fans is the major question.

paul-collins · 20 Jun 2002, 14:56 (Ref:317663)

Quote:

Originally posted by gaines
In my opinion marketing is the biggest problem that faces CART now that the management issues have been taken care of. That includes the problems with the stock and the manufacturers, engines, etc. A realistic, top quality computer game would be a huge step to get racing fans interested. Don’t believe me? Consider this. Six years ago I didn’t know squat about hockey. I bought a hockey game for the Sega genesis and through playing that game quickly learned the rules, the different qualities of the game as well as different strategies. Today I go to roughly three NHL games a year as well as a few college games and I still love the sport, second only to auto racing.

This is a very good point. I don't know that NASCAR rose to the top on the popularity of computer games, as you suggest - they have a lot more going on than that - but a really good example of this is WRC. 5 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find any coverage at all of rally racing. Now Speed covers all WRC races, and WRC is building a very strong following. And the way people are coming to the sport? PlayStation.

Don Panoz is trying the same thing, with heavy marketing surrounding the ALMS and linking it to Gran Turismo 3. Heck, I'm playing Sports Car GT on my PC, but with add-on tracks and cars that mimic ALMS, and I'm loving it - Mid-Ohio, Mosport, Laguna Seca, even Le Mans!

The last attempt at a CART game was Andretti Racing, and it never worked on my PC (stupid Windows

). I don't know if EA used the same graphics as they used for SCGT, but if they did, it would still be a very good game.

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 15:04 (Ref:317666)

Well, maybe I'm just **** but I found ICRII undriveable on the road-courses. The ovals were great, but the drivers qualified insanely fast and raced far too slow... the NASCAR series were great games though. I don't see why Papyrus couldn't have another bash at CART - they did GPL didn't they? That's (seemingly) universally acclaimed as the best open-wheel sim out there.

Who owns the licence? Anyone know?

And as for the "TV Package" speaking as a Brit, the coverage is no better or worse than it ever was, or any better/worse than the IRL TV slot. Shame our NASCAR coverage has gone way downhill these last couple of years...

Jordi · 20 Jun 2002, 23:42 (Ref:317940)

ICR 2 wasn't that undriveable, man... I just hope Papyrus wakes up and does a CART gamer instead of that bloody series of NASCAR... I had N4 and now they come with N2002, please stop for a moment!

And they should do a GPL 2

macdaddy · 21 Jun 2002, 07:00 (Ref:318061)

I'm still playing CPR and really enjoying the game. Updated paint schemes and tracks, but the old game still gets my heart tickin'.