Uncrowned Sportscar Champions

[krt917]

As a Drivers crown wasn't awarded in the World Sportscar Championship until 1981, I thought I'd take a look at past results and work out who WOULD have won it in years prior to that. There are, of course, hundreds of points systems to use, but I've kept it simple (for the moment) and used the 10-6-4-3-2-1 system F1 used until this year (partly as I've only got the results for the top 6 in World Sportscar races 1953-1992.

I've started in 1953 as that was, I believe, the first time the Championship was run for manufacturers. Here are my first few:

1953
1st Guiseppe Farina 20pts (1st at Spa and Nurburgring)
2nd J.M. Fangio 16pts (1st Carrera Panamericana, 2nd in MM)
Actual Manufactorurers Champ.: Ferrari

1954
=1st Umberto Maglioli 20pts (1st at Buenos Aires, C Pan)
=1st Maurice Trintignant 20pts (1st at Le Mans and TT)
AMC: Ferrari

1955
1st Striling Moss 31pts (1st at Mille Miglia, Targa and TT)
2nd Mike Hawthorn 20pts (1st at Sebring and Le Mans)
3rd J.M. Fangio 18pts (2nds at MM, TT and Targa)
AMC: Mercedes-Benz

Quite interesting and, possibly surprising. Has anyone got any comments, either on the above or the way in which I've worked out the Champions (it's probably a bit unfair to work it out so long after, but I was interested to see what it would reveal).

One other question - should I include Le Mans 1956 - all the major names were there, but it wasn't part of the Manufacturers champ. It could make all the difference to the result.

[Rob29]

There actually was an unoffical 1956 championship run by Autocourse magazine and won by Eugenio Castellotti.

[krt917]

Thanks Rob, I didn't know that. My scoring puts Castelotti tying with Moss as both had two wins. If Le Mans is counted as a round, however, Moss' second with the DB3S gives him the title.

[krt917]

I'm not going to give up on this thresd just yet (partly because I'm carrying on with the lists anyway!).

1956 (without Le Mans)
=1. Eugenio Castellotti 20pts (Wins at Sebtring and MM)
=1. Stirling Moss 20pts (Wins at B.A. and Nurb.)
=3. Phill Hill 16pts (Win at Sv.)
=3. Jean Behra 16pts (Win at Nurb.)

1957
If a driver scores in all the cars he drives at one meeting (eg. Moss 1st and 3rd at Sweden):
1. Stirling Moss 28pts (1 Win, 2 seconds)
2. Peter Collins 27pts (Carrera P.)
3. Jean Behra 26pts (Wins at Seb, Sv.)

If a driver scores only in his highest placed car:
1. Peter Collins 27pts
2. Jean Behra 26pts
3. Stirling Moss 24pts

[D-Type]

Interesting stuff. Carry on the good work.
I think you should score only the highest placed drive. This would be in line with the manufacturers' championship which only scored the highest car.

[paul-collins]

In some series, drivers who switch cars usually only get partial points for the highest-placed car in which they drove. Mario Andretti lost the (I think) 1968 USAC championship to Bobby Unser that way - if he got all the points for his last race, he'd have won...

Also, when Fangio won the F1 championship in 1956, did he get full or partial points for the races he switched cars in?

[krt917]

Thnaks D-Type, will do that from now on.

Paul - I've looked up 1956 and he got shared points for the car that finished (ie. someone elses). Essentially though, this would only occur in GP racing if the lead drivers car retired meaning the issue of which car to take the points from didn't come up very often. An exception to this was Argentina 1955 where most drivers swapped different cars at different times due to the heat. I don't know what they did there though - some of the points scoring then was very odd!

[D-Type]

I've just had a trawl through Mike Lang's book. What they appear to have done is divided the points earned by a car by the number of drivers. Argentina 1955 was the only race where any driver shared two cars that finished in the points, in which case Lang adds the points earned from each car.

How to transpose this to sports cars? There are several options, including
(1) A driver scores full points for the all cars he drove. i.e. if he shared 2nd place and 3rd place he would score 6 + 4 = 10 pts. This can't be right as he could notionally score more than the winner
(2) A driver scores full points for the highest placed car he drove. i.e. the same example as above would score 6 pts.
(3) A driver scores shared points for all cars he drove. i.e. if he shared first place with three other drivers and second with two others he would score
10/4 + 6/3 = 2.5 + 2 = 4.5 pts
(4) A driver scores shared points for the highest placed car he drove. i.e. in the above example he would score 2.5 pts.
Either (2) or (3) seems fair to me. (2) is easier to calculate.

It's your thread, you make the rules!

Wobblers
Does the Mille Miglia have one driver or two? Moss and Jenkinson or just Moss? But Fangio drove without a passenger.
It's just as well the 1956 Targa wasn't in the Championship. The nominated drivers of the winning Porsche were Maglioli and Von Hanstein. But Maglioli drove the whole race! You'd drive yourself up the pole trying to decide that one.
How do you treat half points races like the 1958 TT?

Finally - 1956 Le Mans. Jaguar and Aston Martin had made enough D-Types and DB3S's to be classified as "production" cars so they could run. Ferrari and Maserati hadn't and were classified as prototypes and limited to 2.5 litres. So it wouldn't be fair to include it.

As I said, it's your thread - you make the rules!

[krt917]

Thanks D-Type. Didn't think I'd have so many problems when I started. I think I'll take option number 2 from the above - seems the fairest and also means that questions about co-drivers (like Jenks) who didn't actually drive don't affect the results.

[krt917]

OK, time for the next batch!

1958
(TT race scores half points due to shorter length)
1. Phill Hill 36pts (3 wins-at B.Aires, Sebring and LM)
2. Olivier Gendebien 36pts (2 wins-at Targa, LM)
3. Peter Collins

1959
=1. Stirling Moss 20pts (2 wins-Nurb., TT)
=1. Jack Fairman 20pts (2 wins-Nurb., TT)
=1. Carroll Shelby 20pts (2 wins-LM, TT)
=4. Phil Hill 20pts (1 win-Seb)
=4. Olivier Gendebien 20pts (1 win-Seb)
I think Moss would be Champion due to his fastest lap at the Nurburgring.

1960
1. Olivier Gendebien 30pts (2 wins-Seb, LM)
2. Hans Herrmann 23pts (2 wins-Seb, Targa)
=3. Phill Hill 20pts (1 win-BA)
=3. Jo Bonnier 20pts (1 win-Targa)

1961
1. Olivier Gendebien 34pts (3 wins-Seb, Targa, LM)
2. Phill Hill 24pts (2 wins-Seb, LM)
3. Wolfgang von Trips 20pts (1 win-Targa)

[John Turner]

O.K., so where are we going with this then KRT917? What about 1962 onward. I'm allowed to ask you this 'cos, I'm your Dad, so get cracking!

[Rob29]

From 1962 it gets complcated.There was No World Sportscar Championship, only a GT Championship in classes.Just dug out '62 Autocourse and am baffled as to where you would start!.

[krt917]

Thanks for some sympathetic support Rob! I'm going to give it bash. Am even more worried about the 1976 season when sportcars races were run for prototypes and 'silhouettes' at different races! Still, I have a feeling Mr Mass and Mr Ickx may make life a bit more simple for me. Anyway, all that is for later in the thread....

[krt917]

Right, 1962-64, using events that were included in the Speed World Challenge (1962), Speed and Endurance World Challenge (1963) and the International Championship of Makes (1964):

1962
1. Olivier Gendebien (AGAIN!) 36pts (3 wins-TF, Nurb., LM)
2. Phil Hill 26pts (2 wins-Nurb., LM)
3. Willy Mairesse 16pts (1 win-TF)

1963
=1. Willy Mairesse 22pts (1 win-Nurb.)
=1. Lorenzo Bandini 22pts (1 win-LM)
=3. John Surtees 20pts (2 wins-Seb., Nurb.)
=3. Ludovico Scarfiotti 20pts (2 wins-Seb, LM)
On fastest laps, I believe Mairesse would take it.

1964
1. Graham Hill 36pts (3 wins-Reims, TT, Paris)
2. Mike Parkes 30pts (2 wins-Seb., Spa)
3. Jo Bonnier 29pts (2 wins-Reims, Paris)

[carrera]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by krt917
[B]OK, time for the next batch!



1959

=1. Jack Fairman 20pts (2 wins-Nurb., TT)


Our very own local hero.

[krt917]

Yep, though I think those two wins might also have had something to do with a Mr Moss!....

[krt917]

Right, sorry to have been slacking - irritating exam got in the way. Here is the next lot and before you say it, I know that I've left 1965 out. I'll come back to it later as it needs a whole lot of explaining!

1966
1. Ken Miles 26pts (2 wins at Daytona and Sebring, and perhaps should have had another at Le Mans)
=2. Mike Parkes 20pts (2 wins - Monza, Spa)
=2. Ruby 20pts (shared with Miles at Day and Seb.)
4. Ludovico Scarfiotti 18pts (win at Monza, 2nd at Spa)

1967
1. Chris Amon 26pts (2 wins - Daytona and Monza)
2. Ludovico Scarfiotti 22pts (No wins, but 3 2nds)
3. Jo Siffert 21pts (incredible consistent scoring in the little Porsche)

1968 - close one this!
(Zeltweg scores half points due to short distance)
1. Hans Herrmann 41pts (2 wins)
2. Vic Elford 40pts (3 wins)
3. Jo Siffert 36pts (4 wins, incl. Zeltweg)
4. Jacky Ickx 34pts (3 wins)

1969
1. Jo Siffert 60pts (6 wins in 10 races)
2. Brian Redman 57pts (5 wins, didn't share with Siffert at O'Ring)
=3. Vic Elford 26pts (no wins)
=3. Hans Herrmann 26pts (no wins)

Any comments?

[paul-collins]

I'm pleased for Ken Miles. He really should have had that third win, but for stupid politics and manipulations...

[krt917]

Yes. Although its good to see Amon and McLaren up there as Le Mans winners (especially taking into account Amon's bad luck in F1), the finish was done in a very unsatisfactory way.

[John Turner]

Yes, the race result manipulation of last year was nothing new, was it?

Look forward to seeing the 1965 result, Kev.

[krt917]

Yes, well, keeping away from 1965 at the moment, here's 1972-74.

1972
1. Jacky Ickx 66pts (6 wins - Daytona, Sebring, Brands, Monza, Osterreichring, Watkins Glen, but only second at Spa - must have had an off day!!)
=2. Ronnie Peterson 52pts (2 wins - B.Aires, Nurburgring)
=2. Tim Schenken 52pts (as above)
4. Mario Andretti 40pts (4 wins - Daytona, Sebring, Brands and Watkins Glen).

1973
=1. Henri Pescarolo 58pts (5 wins - Vallelunga, Dijon, Le Mans, Watkins Glen, Osterreichring).
=1. Gerard Larrousse 58pts (as above)
=3. Jacky Ickx 40pts (2 wins - Monza, Nurburgring)
=3. Brian Redman 40pts (as above)

1974

1. J-P Jarier 63pts (5 wins - Spa, Nurburgring, Watkins Glen, Paul Ricard, Brands)
=2. Henri Pescarolo 54pts (4 wins - Imola, Le Mans, Osterreichring, Kyalami).
=2. Gerard Larrousse 54pts (as above).
4. J-P Beltoise 53pts (4 wins - Nurburgring, Watkins Glen, Paul Ricard, Brands).

Anyone want to take a guess - without looking mind! - at 1975 and 1976. The latter should be particularly interesting as there are the 'silhouettes' and the sports-prototypes to consider, so I'll probably do winners for each (though I think the they might be the same!).

[Chofar]

Jarier as a boss !!
At Last ! He might be helped by the 76 winner at Spa, If i recall exactly, the guy with black helmet ?
Good idea this one, you are doing a tough job. Is 70-71 harder than the rest ?
The real good perfume of this kind of stats is in the way that it didn't exist at the time. If it had existed at the time, team rules would have screwed all those beautiful results, just like nowadays.
where is Ickx in 74 ?

Keep up the good work

[krt917]

Hi Chofar, thanks for the enthusiasm. I admit to sheer stupidity on missing out 1970 and 1971. I have done them - in fact I did them first because it's my favourite period and I have NO IDEA why I missed them on this thread. I will correct that asap.

I can see what you mean about points system's messing up modern races. It does depend a bit on the actual way the points are shared, of course. That's why I dislike the new 10-8 scoring system in F1 at the moment, but I guess that's another thread!....

I'll get back to you on Ickx in '74.

[krt917]

Right, here are the missing years:

1970
=1. Pedro Rodriguez 49pts (4 wins, inc. Daytona, Brands (Wow!), Monza).
=1. Leo Kinnunen 49pts (as above).
3. Jo Siffert 45pts (3 wins)

1971
1. Pedro Rodriguez 55pts (4 wins - Daytona, Monza, Spa, Ost.).
2. Andrea de Adamich 44pts (2 wins - Brands, Watkins Glen).
3. Jo Siffert 40pts (1 win - Buenos Aires, 4 2nds).

And to answer your question, Chofar, Ickx would have been equal 6th (with Muller and van Lennep) in 1974. I don't know if he did all the races, but he did win at Spa and came second at Monza.

[eldougo]

Great work Krt917 very interesting keep up the good work
Watch out for DAD he no to you!!