What to do with a Slow Driver?

[Bostik]

At the BRSCC Superclub Brands Hatch meet last weekend, there was a novice in a one make series, whose best qualifying lap was 22% slower than the pole man.

He was a bit more than a nuisance - he was a danger to himself and to his fellow competitors. Worse still, in the races, when the leading pack came up behind him, he panicked a bit, braked and tried to change his line.

I later checked the Blue Book and found the following:
J-4.4.3 (Practise) Drivers whose best lap times exceeds by more than 10% that of the third fastest car within its class (where similar weather conditions prevailed), may be excluded at the discretion of the Clerk of the Course.

The CoC was presumably happy with him - he raced - and was lapped four times in the first 20 lap race (but only twice in the second because of yellow/black quarter flag laps).

Are there other rules that govern the race (as opposed to the practise)?
Does the MST timing system not highlight this simple calculation for the CoC?
Doesn't anybody care if there are such unavoidable risks to drivers and their wallets?

I would be interested to learn what the normal race day protocol is that should deal with this issue - and who is considered to be in the best position to offer some advice to new drivers - like, dont enter a race until your practise times are within 10-12% of the lap record!

[Peter Mallett]

Bostik,

Were you a newby once?

Don't mean to sound harsh but we were all there once and some don't even get past that!

I agree somebody should have a word, did you?

Surely in practice you and your fellow competitors were aware of the new driver. A quiet word about being careful, looking in mirrors and not changing line dramatically would have helped before the race.

We in the CTCRC generally watch out for new people and give as much advice as possible.

So whilst the blue book is there we have to remember that this is "Club Motorsport" so a bit of latitude is appropriate.

So my advice would be to talk to this driver when you next see him, make him aware of your concerns and see if he needs some help.

The alternative is to protest him and see what the CoC does.

[RMR]

I agree with Bostik here. We were all new boys once but that is dangerously slow. Sounds like he needs to do a fair bit of testing before racing. All for new racers but if im in a battle for a good position and come up to lap someone who is a bit unpredictable, it will end in tears. But also like Peter said I think the best thing to do was to go and see the Coc and share your views and ask for his opinion.

[Bob Pearson]

I agree 22% is a big margin, we've had 16% this year, but I agree with Peter, talk to the guy and help him. As long as he isn't being deliberately obstructive the margin can probably be halved quite easily. Do you have a drivers rep, someone who can speak to a relative stranger without upset, someone who holds some respect, he would probebly be the best man to deal with it. The worst approach is to grumble to yourselves.

[Bostik]

I agree that someone should have had a friendly word. But you'd think this was so obvious to the novice, and his helpers, that they could have worked it out. I'm sure he doesn't really want strangers to approach him with such advice. Common sense?
Question - Is a CoC likely to spot this type of problem for himself - or does he rely on someone alerting him?

[Bob Pearson]

Bostik,
Whether the guy can bring himself to approach others depends on the type of person he is. To us regulars the paddock is friendly, but, although I can't remember back that far, i suspect to a lot of newcomers it seems quite hostile. I feel the onus of dealing with it lies with the regulars and preferably the type of person I descibed in my last reply.
As A rep I have discussed similar problems with the C of C generally they don't know the full details, but I still think it is best sorted by education and encouragement rather than a formal route. I think the C of C need only be involved if the person is being deliberately unhelpful, in this case that certainly didn't seem to apply.

[Piglet]

It's interesting isn't it? As I type this the thread below this one is criticising a clerk for becoming involved and speaking to a driver (I accept the tone of the conversation is important) and yet this thread is criticising a clerk for not taking action!!

Heads you lose, tails you oh...lose!

Come on guys, take a bit of responsibility on yourselves, and stop blaming everyone else for situations that you could influence yourselves.

[Morris 1100]

In the fifties and sixties the C of C could black flag cars for being too slow or not driving safely.
Racing was much more dangerous back then and you did not need extra hazzards like drivers that got in the way or did dangerous things in front of the leaders.

The opening meeting of Philip Island circuit in Victoria had a fatal accident when a novice driver rolled his car and was killed, the C of C was waiting at the start line ready to give him the black flag the next time around, he never made it!
If the C of C had of given it when he was first aware of the problems that the novice was having the accident may not have happened.

Racing is much safer these days but we do not need people driving badly on the track.

[Stephen Green]

I would imagine the C of the C would be made aware of the slow times by the time keepers or, by watching him/herself! If I were a novice, 'proudly' displaying my novice cross on the rear of my car, and were that slow, I would welcome some friendly help/criticism. If the other drivers (not en mass) were to have a quiet word to the slow guy and explain that by holding his line you will all know what to expect and be able to pass him with the mimimum of danger, then I would have thought you would get the novice's co-operation?

The one thing I notice from the banks is that in the majority of clubbies, the drivers appear to be very friendly towards ech other. Maybe this guy just needs to be taken into the fold and nurtured a little?

At the end of the day we are all complaining about small grids for many championships, so let's not put newbies off racing eh!

[PenelopePitstop]

Or ... You could help him with brake points, racing lines, car set up etc. The new driver is then quicker and I would think a lot happier & you guys won't come across him as often. If you do a really good job you might even be chasing him in a couple osf seasons time.

[TomS]

I couldn't agree with Bob Pearson more. Everybody was slow once and if somebody helps him he will get quicker and so it wouldn't be a problem. Anyway the organisers of British Motorsport always go on about how important it is to have newcomers so if somebody was to help him we would have another driver in Motorsport which can't be a bad thing.
My Dad races in Sports 2000 and he was very slow to start off with but lots of people came up to him and told him the best way drive around Brands for example as well as telling him what gear ratios to run etc. This improved his times around most circuits hugely and now means he isn't running at the back even though he has only done 12 races. This means he is no longer a problem for the faster drivers and this is what needs to be done with most novices.

[ss_collins]

I was without doubt 22% slower than the quickest acr in my first race - but that was in the Ford Saloons and I was in a class E fiesta with a standard lump, the fastest car had a turbo V6 and was a full on nutter machine. Help the nebie not call him dangerous, let him learn.

[Bob Pearson]

That was a bit harsh Piglet,I think I actually said that it is best sorted outside of official channels, i.e drivers rep or similar.

[Piglet]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
That was a bit harsh Piglet,I think I actually said that it is best sorted outside of official channels, i.e drivers rep or similar.

I know you did Bob and I think that's the right way to deal with this, new drivers (as with newbies in any situation) need to be helped not just moaned about - I should have checked was posted above!

My comment relates to the first posts that seemed to be indicating that the clerk should have dealt with the driver and didn't, along with the other thread complaining that someone had been dealt with by a clerk. It's the whole attitude that it's easier to blame someone else for a situation rather than take some responsiblity.

[av8rirl]

Or you could allow him to run nitrous!!! He might be near the pace then... on the straights anyways...

[Phoenix1]

I my first race, grandted it was only a Kart race I started and finished last and well it was embarressing but with a bit of help and hints I went out and won the next one against the same people only a month later and then helped them and so forth. As we race more we stay close and fight lap after lap side my side because we helped one another. Practise makes perfect after all. So basically help one another, also brings trust which is vital in motorsport especially faster categories.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Slightly off topic, but Stephen Green said earlier, something that many people say but i wish they wouldn't say it. He suggested that the new guy should be told to "hold his line when being lapped."

This is very ambigous as many people have rather different interpretations of exactly what it means to hold one's line. This ambiguity and the varying reactions that come from it are potentially very dangerous.

This was demonstrated at a race meeting recently at Morgan Park, where a backmarker having his first race was caught by the leaders on the last lap of the Championship race. They caught him mid corner, at the fastest, most dangerous corner on the track. He was in the centre of the circuit and the fast guys tried to go around the outside of him. However, he let his car run right out to the edge of the circuit as he exited the corner, directly in front of the leaders, who took to the grass verge in avoidance!

He was obviously spoken to about this afterwards, politely I'm glad to say, and he said that the advise he had been given was to "hold his line", when being lapped. As many others would, he took that to mean, if you are on the racing line, stay on it, he was and he did; hence the near miss.

Surely, it would be far better to teach people, when being lapped, stay on whatever side of the track you are on. If you are on the left, keep to the left etc.

[marcus]

so in other words Dave , move off line and out of the way ???

I only raced karts so have no experience of lapping or being lapped , and I just found this thread and have found it very interesting.

again i havent raced cars but wouldnt the best thing for a backmarker to do is (if possible) signal to the lead drivers what side to pass on , ive seen this several times and it works fine , the driver signals what way he wants the leaders to go past on and moves the other way to give them plenty of room.

I guess its easier said than done and im jst an interested spectator but thats my 5c plus GST worth

carry on !!!

[Simon S]

I have to say I am with the school of thought that the driver being lapped is far safer staying on whatever line he is commited to, it's up to the faster drivers to pick their way past him.

Once you get people second guessing which way the backmarker is going to move, an incident is not far away.

Most of the racing I do is in very mixed fields, at the last one the diff front to back was ~20%, however, in 77 laps of racing, I did not encounter a single *moment* when passing slower cars.

[Stephen Green]

Welcome to Ten-Tenths Simon

[DAVID PATERSON]

Marcus and Simon, I've had a lot of experience at being lapped and lately I've done a bit of lapping as well, so i feel somewhat qualified to comment.

I really think that it is very dangerous for the lapped car to stick to the racing line and let the quick guy make his own arrangements. The lapped car must keep to one side of the track, moving right and left as the racing line dictates is asking for trouble.

I agree that it is a very good idea for the lapped car to signal to the faster car behind, which side to pass on, however, sometimes with an armful of opposite lock and a gearchange you don't have an arm or even a hand to spare.

Obviously, it is important for the slower guy to keep an eye on his mirrors and if necessary, roll off the throttle and don't commit 110% to the corner if you're being lapped. I realise tht being alpped is more of ahindrance than lapping, but getting it over with and conceding is probably quicker and definitely safer than pushing yourself to the limit right in front of the quicks.

Without meaning to condescend, let's be honest here. If you're being lapped, your pace and position aren't likeley to be as important in the overall scheme of things than that of the quick guy lapping you and it's likely that the quick guy is closer to his limit than the slower car being lapped, commitment is one of the reasons why the quicks are quick.

On the other side of the coin, it is very important for quick guys to realise that the slower cars are still entitled to be on the track and must be given some room. Whenever I pass someone, I always make sure i leave them at least 1 car width, nobody is entitled to the entire track.

[jonathanc]

hmmm interesting topic. I have recently started racing SS type cars. Having never raced in anything previosuly I was/still am a newbie.

Ive been told several things about what should be done when you are being lapped. Most have said to keep your line and the faster driver will make his way past.

I think this is correct. I have found that to begin with, seeing someone flying up behind you and then taking you mid corner is quite scary for a beginner, especially the rate that the more experienced drivers move. It is more likely the beginner will make a mistake and possibly take several people out of the race.

I understand that on a straight, moving over is easy, but why should the racer being lapped change his/her line mid corner (when they are less likely to be looking in the mirrors). This sounds alot more dangerous than keeping the racing line. If the lapping car is 2/3rds or more past the one being lapped going into the corner, then fine let them take it, otherwise wait until you are out of the corner and then move over.

I normally wave the lapper through when I want them to get past. This way they know I have acknowledged the fact they are there.

I would find it very helpful if others who find that I am getting in the way, came up to me and helped me on my lines and brake points etc. This way I would get quicker and less of a hindrance for the others.

As many have said before.... everyone has to start somewhere.

[RMR]

Johnathon, I also think you are right, in a race i much prefer the slower cars to stick to there line as it is much more predictable, it is the task of the faster car to get past the slower, on a straight if safe move over. In qualifying however I think the slower driver has to be very aware, and must move of the line so not to impeed the fast car on a hot lap. i know it sounds contradictary but hopefully you know what i mean.

But i still hold the opinion if you are as slow as was described above then testing should be done possible with training until the driver is quick enough to be with others at the back.

I also agree that it is a fine line what to say to the driver incase they are scared off and we certainly need more/new racers, but he may also get disheartened as he is so slow so it works both way if see what im getting at.

[jonathanc]

RMR - I agree totally.
I wish the bigger tracks had more frequent test days during the main season and have more weekend test days during the off season.

Wishful thinking I suppose

[Simon S]

David,

I take your point,, however, what I said was "the driver being lapped is far safer staying on whatever line he is commited to"

this does not nessesarily mean the racing line...

My own prefferance is to just take the corner wide and leave the apex open for them to slide by.