How do the Tifosi react to Pironi?

[alesi95]

The Tifosi love Gilles Villeneuve, everybody loved Gilles Villeneuve.
But what do they think of Didier Pironi?

Pironi ofcourse was a star at Tyrrell and Ligier winning for both teams and after a year ajusting to Ferrari he starred to make the team his own.

Villeneuve was treated like a son by Enzo but Didier was now becomming favouritable with the managment in charge of the team at the track, due to his more indepth technical analyse.
(Pironi liked a stable car, whilst Villeneuve would drive anything.)

Of course Pironi's moves at Imola had upset Villeneuve and it was his efforts to remove Pironi from the top of the times at Zolder the following weekend that resulted in his death.

What effect did this have on the tifosi's view of Pironi?

[Adam43]

Nigel Roebuck tackles a very similar question
http://www.autosport.com/featuresask...=23485&s=5&l=3

Nigel is not exactly a member of the tifosi now, but he used to be fully paid up a few years back and he was a huge Ferrari fan back when Pironi and Villeneuve drove for them.

[alesi95]

Cheers. Interesting read.
On the subject of Roebuck, what do people think of his articles?

I've always ben a fan of his, but recently there has been a lot of critism about his favouritism of certain drivers and he has also been acussed of being anti-schumacher.

[Adam43]

You should read his latest fifth column - he sings Michael's and Ferrari's praises. The gist of it is that the others have problems now Michael is staying around till 2006. Not very anti. He thinks Michael is the best in the world, but he probably can't be classed as a fan.

[Adam43]

Actually, it is a shame no one else has picked up on your Pironi post. I posted that link because I thought it summed it up fairly well.

The main problem with Pironi is that he was around and in a Ferrari when Villeneuve was there. What would people feel about anyone with Villeneuve.

I also find it interesting how the Tifosi seemed to take to Tambay (Villeneuves friend) the year after. Especially at Imola 1983.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by alesi95
Cheers. Interesting read.
On the subject of Roebuck, what do people think of his articles?

I've always ben a fan of his, but recently there has been a lot of critism about his favouritism of certain drivers and he has also been acussed of being anti-schumacher.

One of the few things still worth buying Autosport for these days. Anti-TGF eh? That's probably why I enjoy the articles......

Honestly though, I can't say I'd noticed that.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, I'm not a Tifosi, but I regard Pironi as a back-stabbing little anitchrist who got kicked in the arse by karma. That's just my opinion.

[paul-collins]

I only cheered for Ferrari when Gilles was there.

Reading Roebuck's article is like a warm blanket, retelling the story we all know about innocence lost. It doesn't make us happier, but we can feel comfort in knowing our sorrow is shared so widely.

If I were tifosi I would be forever angry at being robbed of such glory he would have brought me. Come to think of it, I am.

[Fish_Flake]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well, I'm not a Tifosi, but I regard Pironi as a back-stabbing little anitchrist who got kicked in the arse by karma. That's just my opinion.

So, in that case, Pironi cheated his inevitable fate at Montreal. The writing was on the wall; Villeneuve's home track, newly dedicated to his memory...Paletti's car was supposed to inflict serious damage to Didier, and he was the one who was supposed to die that day. He somehow escaped, so the forces unknown put a Renault in his way at Hockenheim.

[Liz]

I have never liked people who cheat and then lie about it. Pironi got what he deserved.

On the other hand he was just a harbinger of the direction Ferrari would eventually head wasn't he? The hot shot driver cheats and lies, and Ferrari falls in behind him...

Perhaps it was a good thing Gilles didn't have to stay around to see how far Ferrari fell ...

I am speaking morally when I say 'fell' as I know a great many people think winning is the only important thing no matter who you kill to do it and would say he, and his successors, were justified.

"I want to dedicate it to Gilles," he said over the PA, "because I think we all know that if he'd been here, he would have been on pole."

I was talking to another driver, and we paused to listen. "If it hadn't been for him," he murmured, "Gilles would have been here..." Harsh, perhaps, but a reflection of what many people were feeling.

[racer69]

I'd like to know this:

- Pironi is remembered as a cheat, back stabber etc.... for Imola 1982 for not obeying team orders....

How is this different to:

- Reuteman not obeying team orders to let Jones past at Brazil in 1981, or-

- Senna not obeying his agreement with Prost at Imola in 1989?

- Or even Austria '02. Everyone seems to be so against team orders, yet in the Villeneuve/Pironi case, the guy actually racing is getting the abuse...........

Sorry, but none of this anti-Pironi stuff makes sense......

[kdr]

Originally posted by alesi95
Cheers. Interesting read.
On the subject of Roebuck, what do people think of his articles?

I've always ben a fan of his, but recently there has been a lot of critism about his favouritism of certain drivers and he has also been acussed of being anti-schumacher.

his little digs at tony blair drive me to distraction. i'm left of new labour, so i'm no great fan...but attacks on the goverment in an article on traction control??

[Liz]

It would not be different if he had not agreed in advance to follow the rules and then pretended he won fairly. And if he had not lied and said he "didn't see the pit board" which he later admitted (like Senna) was a lie.

[JohnSSC]

racer69: Interesting questions you pose. I think it is because the other teams mentioned were not Ferrari or the drivers (well never mind) so those incidents are all easily explained as the delightful machinations of intra-team politics. As we all know, Ferrari is the root of all evil!!!

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by racer69
- Or even Austria '02. Everyone seems to be so against team orders, yet in the Villeneuve/Pironi case, the guy actually racing is getting the abuse...........

Sorry, but none of this anti-Pironi stuff makes sense......

Maybe because Michael Schumacher was seen as the Pironi of the 1990s and everyone wanted Rubens to beat him, even by disobeying team orders?

[high contrast]

R.I.P.

[expert]

Well, I'm not a Tifosi, but I regard Pironi as a back-stabbing little anitchrist who got kicked in the arse by karma. That's just my opinion.

As a tifosi I agree with the above...

[PaulSands]

Had Gilles not died at Zolder I think this little spat would've been a mere footnote in history. As it was Gilles was apparently still in the midst of a red rage when he met his end all of which amplified the anti Pironi feeling that was around by a factor of 1000, anti feeling that a couple of races down the road would have virtually have dissipated.
You have to remember that Imaola 82 wasn't even a real race as half the teams weren't there so no matter who won it was instantlly devalued...this really would've been a storm in a teacup if Zolder hadnt happened.
I say this from the stance of someone who loved Gilles and at the time agreed with all the anti Proni sentiment...now with a little time and just a little more wisdom I feel I can see the whole deal in a little more perspective

[Barny]

his little digs at tony blair drive me to distraction.

KDR I agree about Nigel Roebuck, his poiltical comments are unneccesary and distracting, he should not lower himself to that level, otherwise he is my favourite contempory F1 writer, very much like Dennis Jenkinson.

[Alx]

I wouldn't call myself a tifosi, and I'm not old enough to remember Imola '82 (I was born in 81 - making some of you feel old?! ), but I have read and watched a bit on the subject and would like to say this.

What Pironi did was wrong, and when I first heard about the subject, I took a very anti-view on it. But, I dunno, after a while, I felt sorry for him. Sure, like I said he was wrong, and it was unkind in many ways, but the guy paid the price for it, and I think had Hockenheim even not happened, and he would have continued racing, he would have still had that held against him whatever he did. It's a big burden, more so when Gilles was killed, and I'm sure he wasn't such a heartless man that he didn't feel bad and at least partially reponsible for it. And they say he had attempted to make it up with Gilles in the last 2 weeks.

I admit, if I would have been around at the time I would probably have never forgiven him for it, but as it stands, I guess while I will condemn him for it, I still feel that he also suffered for his crimes, but maybe I’m too soft. Like I say, it would have been a whole different ball game I guess had I been ‘around’ at the time.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by racer69

Sorry, but none of this anti-Pironi stuff makes sense......

Indeed. If anything Gilles was killed by his own temperament trying so hard to get even with his team, that he crashed his Ferrari into Jochen Mass' car. Pironi, actually, was nowhere in sight. It is quite untasteful to burden Pironi with this type of blame, and to do it in the name of everything which is morally right is nothing short of ridiculous.

Besides, the last few laps of Imola 1982 gave us some great racing. Right up there with Dijon 1979. Even if it was staged, which it apperantly wasn't.

[ringo]

hi i'm young and don't know much F1 history, can anyone tell me what happened with paroni and gilles... and how it was his fault and how he cheated then lied. thanks

[MrSal]

The Italian Grand Prix of 1981 was a strange race because all the British based garage teams(Williams, McLaren, Lotus etc) didn't race because of various disputes with the FIA(at the time controlled by a very eccentric Frenchman named Balestre)Therefore, with the field redubed drastically, the Ferrari drivers agreed that whoever was leading at some point in the race(I'm not sure when) would win the race. They put on a show for the crowd of overtaking each other a few times, but Giles expected Pironi to let him win. He didn't, even though he had agreed to do so, and Villeneuve vowed never to speak to Pironi again. Giles was probably very naive but he had allowed Jody Scheckter to win the title by riding shotgun a couple of years before. He therefore expected Pironi to be as honest and suppoty his title bid this time.
It would, no doubt, probably have blown over in the end, but tragically at Zolder at the next race 2 weeks later Giles was killed in a horrific crash in qualifying. It has often been said that it was on a flying lap trying to get pole which was held by Pironi, but it was actually on a slowing down lap coming into the pits, which makes his death even more pointless. Because Villeneuve was loved around the world for his spectacular driving style(the Ferrari at this time had tremendous power, but handled like a combine harvester) Pironi is generally reviled for being dishonest and underhand. Whether this is totally fair is open to question. Pironi would have won the title that year(which was a very wild controversial and violent season) but he smashed his legs at Hockenheim in a very similar accident to the one that killed his team mate. He never drove in F1 again and eventually died in a powerboat accident about 8 years later. Altogether a pretty sorry story.

[NiceGuyEddie]

It has often been said that it was on a flying lap trying to get pole which was held by Pironi, but it was actually on a slowing down lap coming into the pits,

Really? I always thought he actually was on a flying lap, crashing into Jochen Mass' car while he was on his slowingdown lap.

And didn't Pironi tried out a Ligier after having recovered from his 1982 accident?

I also believed Pironi very much regretted his action at Imola 1982, although I don't know why he actually did it. I do believe he named one of his kids after Gilles.

[krt917]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie

Besides, the last few laps of Imola 1982 gave us some great racing. Right up there with Dijon 1979. Even if it was staged, which it apperantly wasn't.

I agree that it is unfair for Pironi to hae the burden of blame for the Gilles accident - that was the result of a combination of stupid qually rules, Gilles aggressive nature (would he have backed off if Imola hadn't happened) and unlucky timing. However, I don't thikn you could put the dice up there with Dijon '79. It wasn't so much staged as Villeneuve not actually racing until the last lap because he didn't realise Didier was racing for real.

Just as an interesting note, Arnoux and Prost actually had pre-race team-orders at the French GP that year which Arnoux broke. That doesn't get so much coverage these days, presumably because it didn't end in tragedy.