Why is Renault so fast to start but slow at the end?...

[high contrast]

Truli at Silverstone got us thinking, how come after a mega qualifying he streaked away from Kimi? That idiot 'track invader' aside where was that early form later in the race?

Could they be running under weight!!!?

Yeah, Yeah, they weigh them after qualifying and at the end of the race, but not during the race! Nor do they weigh them dry! BUT could they be using fuel as partial ballast? and racing underweight up until their last fuel stop?

This is how it could work...a typical fuel load for a two stop stategy is 60-70kg which is about what they probably carry in lead under the cars. So they reduce the lead ballast and replace that weight in fuel! As the fuel load goes down the car races underweight, which is replaced later in the race, calculated to come home just over the limit! We nor the other teams ever see the weights, over the limit is over the limit!

That might explain why they are so quick in qualifying, and are so quick in the early running, but so average always at the end! Just a thought!

[BootsOntheSide]

I think you're reading a lot out of nothing. Trulli has always been unable to back up hsi qualifying efforts in the races. And he started to lack pace well beofre his final pitstop at Silverstone.

Alonso started to run slow from half-distance as his car developed a problem.

They don't seem to ahve slowed late-race elsewhere either, remember Spain where Fernando harried Michael until the end and din't come back under pressure from Rubens.

The parc ferme regulations are so strict that there's no way the team would be allowed to run in that way. in fact, I thought they weighed the cars without fuel.

[ralf fan]

I think the reason is that they usually run light in qualifying and hence they are fast at the start .This means that they are the first of the big guns to pit .This however means that they have to run a longer second stint explaing why they become slower as the race prgressess.

[Adam43]

I don't think their lack of weight is enough to explain the amazing starts. They are only a few kgs different. The engine could have good torque characteristics and the launch control must be spot on.

[beau]

The thing with Renault is that they have a really good Launch control system that is why they these flying starts and move up through the pack but i do not know what happens to them at the end of the race.
There has been no complaits from the other team that they might be running under weight cars and evan if they were the Stewarts would probably inquire

[Inigo Montoya]

They have the old Ferrari electronics whiz there. Thus the fabulous launch control.

[LindaC]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
I think you're reading a lot out of nothing. Trulli has always been unable to back up hsi qualifying efforts in the races. And he started to lack pace well beofre his final pitstop at Silverstone.

Alonso started to run slow from half-distance as his car developed a problem.

They don't seem to ahve slowed late-race elsewhere either, remember Spain where Fernando harried Michael until the end and din't come back under pressure from Rubens.

The parc ferme regulations are so strict that there's no way the team would be allowed to run in that way. in fact, I thought they weighed the cars without fuel.

At Silverstone, his first pit stop put paid to the balance of Trulli's car and he was on the softest tyre compound which may have contributed. Also, as surely everyone knows by now, the Renault suffers with a lack of straightline speed compared to Williams, McLaren, Toyota etc. This didn't signify when Trulli was running in the lead, but did when he was back in traffic.

Alonso was on the harder tyre compound which did seem to benefit him for a while, but then had the mechanical failure, as you say, which slowed him down to a stop.

[BD]

We've been through this before. The cars are weighed after the race without fluids. Also the ballast used is tungsten, not lead.
Since the Renault engine cant rev as high as most other teams, they probably have a torque advantage. This coupled with a great launch control, contributes to blindingly fast starts.

[RWC]

one of the race comentators mentioned that 'now that they've filled trulli to get to the end his lap times have dropped right off.
Silverstone makes a car very sensitive to fuel load and maybe the renault is that way anyway(i haven't paid much attn)
You are right about the 'underweight midrace' theory!!
But as BD says,they now weight them without fluids post race apparently.
Another aspect of the renault starts is the weird engine configuration-it MAY have a type of big bang effect like they used to such great effect in moto GP for years.

[Hugh Jarce]

I think this is just down to do with the on-going lack of 'grunt' that they have.

The car can be set up really well for 'quallies' based on the extra testing time on Friday. They have often run softer compounds as a benefit of this time. Couple that with the great launch control and at the beginning of the race they are right up there.

But then the issue of straight line speed slowly takes its toll. As laps go by, what advantage they have had is lost and they appear to be going backwards.

Then, in order to try and rectify this they may have tweaked what appeared to be a really reliable engine at the beginning of the season, which has led to failures.

Once they get more HP, then the qualifiying and starting advantage will not be lost!

[corkholio]

According to Autosport Trulli's car was **** in traffic. Also I think he was running the super soft Michelins and was probably going to do a 3 stopper. They probably changed to a 2 stopper because of the safety car periods which probably killed his tires towards the end of his stint and the extra fuel probably screwed his balance as well.

[Glen]

This fuel as ballast thing is quite interesting - Geoff Willis said something about it earlier in the year, and mentioned that it was widely thought that at least one team were dabbling with it. I haven't heard that they are weighing the cars dry - pretty sure they aren't.

Renault only suffer because of power now - at Silverstone they were forced to use more wing so as to maintain their speed advantage in the corners (the quickest set up for the lap time) but in doing so they left themselves vulnerable down the straights, which is already their weak point. Interestingly this highlights the fact that a car with more wing is easier to overtake, which is the opposite of what many believe.

[esorniloc]

I think having Trulli as a driver doesn't help, he seems to be something of a qualifying specialist and not a `racer'.

[The Zuschauer]

1. The cars are weighed dry, and have been for years. You really think the FIA would be dumb enough to let people do something as simple as that?

2. Renault's launch/traction control works off the clutch, not by cutting spark or fuel like every other team. It works extremely well, hence the excellent starts.

3. Trulli is damn good, so question the car before you question him.

[Gore]

What kind of fuel capacity do F1 cars have? Unless Renault have an unusually large tank, I think a stop that allowed the cars to finish with 60-70kgs of fuel would have to occur noticeably close to the end of the race.

Furthermore, assuming that F1 fuel weighs 2kg/litre (ie. twice as dense as water, which I expect will be an overestimate--does anyone know?), with fuel rigs delivering c.12 litres of fuel/second, we would expect to see the Renaults' last stops to be about 2.5 secs slower than other teams on the same strategy, which I expect someone would notice over the course of a season.

[The Zuschauer]

Petrol weighs 0.7kg per litre (approx).

I'd like to try some of your 2kg per litre variety. It must have some serious grunt.

[JR Ewing]

The cars AREN'T weighed dry as they have an overall weight limit which is regardless of which bit weighs what and you could, for example, use a liquid ballast - although obviously you wouldn't.
The trick with the refuelling is that during the race they could be illegal but would be legal at the start and the finish...
So you could qualify with low fuel weight but quite a bit of fuel which would put you at the front(ish). You'd have to take on more fuel with the pitstops to end the race with as much fuel as the others started with. More refuelling takes more time in the pits, so if you took thep*ss it would be pretty obvious...

[Glen]

A team with especially good fuel consumption could hide the difference quite easily. Hmm - which team is reckoned to have the best consumption, with an engine that doesn't rev as high as the others? They would need to bring the level up gradually during the race, so the middle stint would be less good and the final stint would be the worst, relatively speaking - but they would have started out in a good grid position and still been able to run long-ish on the first stint. Also - the only chance of getting caught is if the race is stopped and a result declared, which is only ever going to happen in the final third of the race (otherwise there would be re-start). Considering the extreme lengths that competitors go to to get a better result this doesn't seem all that unlikely to me - I'd even go so far as to say that several teams may well be doing it, or have done it.

[JR Ewing]

Brazil?

[JR Ewing]

and what about when the b'stards cheated in 1994 and 1995 with launch control etc. that was Briatore too!!!

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by The Zuschauer
[B]1. The cars are weighed dry, and have been for years. You really think the FIA would be dumb enough to let people do something as simple as that?

From the 2003 FIA sporting regulations:

After the race each car crossing the Line will be weighed. If a driver wishes to leave his car before it
is weighed he must ask the technical delegate to weigh him in order that this weight may be added to that of the
car.
....

No solid, liquid, gas or other substance or matter of whatsoever nature may be added to, placed on, or
removed from a car after it has been selected for weighing or has finished the race or during the weighing
procedure. (Except by a scrutineer when acting in his official capacity).

_______________


Its weighed with the fluids and driver.

[JR Ewing]

like i said

[Inigo Montoya]

Yup JR. But The Zuschauer was right about the density of the fuel - must be between 720 and 775 kg/m^3 according the FIA. Its amazing what you can learn by reading the tech regulations

[Glen]

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Brazil?

Two-thirds (I think - what is the distance at which a race can be stopped and called a result without a re-start?).

Of course all of this enjoyable conspiracy stuff ignores the fact that the cars are weighed before qualifying - I think the FIA might raise an eyebrow if a car that weighed 615 kilos on Saturday then went on to do 20 laps! They aren't about to pull a car out of the race and weigh it, but I'm sure there would be words!

[high contrast]

Originally posted by BD
We've been through this before. The cars are weighed after the race without fluids. Also the ballast used is tungsten, not lead.
Since the Renault engine cant rev as high as most other teams, they probably have a torque advantage. This coupled with a great launch control, contributes to blindingly fast starts.

Rubbish! The cars are NOT weighed without fluids!
Rubbish! Some teams use 'Mallory' LEAD which is the densist form of lead!

Attack the theory...not the facts!