Transponders for hillclimbs/sprints

[graham blackwell]

Why aren't they used?

I was totally mucked about by the organisers of the 3 Sisters Sprint on 4th April, with timing anomolies all day. Lined up for my 1st timed run before lunch, and just as I set off it started spitting, then halfway round it became a downpour, and as I crossed the line, the time said 22 seconds instead of 55. I queried the time, and they said it was a crisp packet that blew across the timing beam, so I didn't record a time. And so it went on, with other competitors losing times left right and centre through other 'excuses'. My only chance to record a quick time in the damp had gone, as it rained for the rest of the day, so I automatically came 2nd in class, and scored hardly any points towards the championship.

Had I got a transponder on board, then none of this would have happened. It must happen all the time, every event, every weekend, people have their days spoilt by timing anomolies.

So why no transponders in Sprints/Hillclimbs?
Timing beams are v.low tech, but that's missed the point, they're still useless.

[ss_collins]

money? but I agree

[redshoes]

The transponder does record a time, it only tells the timing system who has crossed the line. The actual timing is still down to a line beam.

Not really much point in sprints and hillclimbs when there's no arguement who just passed the finish line.

[Chris Y]

That's not the original point of transponders though - they are supposed to be a means of timing. It just happens that in circuit-based club racing they're only used for identification currently.

[Fireblade]

Transponders are successfully used in other countries for speed events. There is no reason why they can't be used here. I don't see cost being too much of a drawback really. When you consider how much is spent on running an average hillclimber for a season let alone a top class championship car, the price to fit a permanent transponder to a car pales into insignificance. Not a bad way forward when one considers that timekeeping staff are at an all time low in terms of numbers. Less being recruited and some retiring is the main reason. Surely transponders would cut down on some man (and women) power?

I have heard a few excuses for a failed time over the years but a crisp packet is a new one on me. Can well believe it though. Other reasons as follows - Pheasant(Shelsley) Deer(Loton)Course Car (Prescott)
Of course, these incidents always happen on a drivers best, quickets and potentially record breaking runs. Well, to hear that moan afterwards you would be led to believe that.


A few years ago before Shelsley Walsh was rewired it was not unusual to have a break in the proceedings whilst assorted members of the time keeping crew leapt around the *giant rhubarb* running in drums of cable as a makeshift measure.


*Giant Rhubarb* = A wild plant with large leaves that grow at triffid like rates in the Teme Valley. If your car goes in there you have 30 mins to get it out before it is overgrown.

[swift]

I too was at 3-Sisters on the 4th and was told that upon my approach to the start line for my first practice run, that my timing strut was not high enough! This dispite that the previous Sunday we were at the Harewood practice and never had a problem.

I think one issue could possibly lie with the different timekeepers that clubs employ and the quality of kit that they use. I know that at the Harewood test day there were some timing "glitches" and this from semi-permanent kit that doesn't have to be constantly removed and re-installed at every meeting. To use tranponders may only be a partial solution: would this require all time keepers to use the same equipment?

My other area for concern is one of value for money for the competitor. Clubs are being forced to take more and more entries to events to cover their "break even" figure on ever spiralling venue hire costs. This leads to a fine margin of error if there are any hold ups due to timing problems, the recovery of a broken down/crashed vehicle or to clean up oil spillages etc. The question being : due you take 100 entries and them 3 timed runs or do take 150 entries and give them only 2 runs? I was at Harewood on the 11th and at 4pm I hadn't had my 2nd timed run. We were scheduled for 3, we managed to get them in, just. But had there been any more hold ups who knows?

[Woolley]

Originally posted by Fireblade
*Giant Rhubarb* = A wild plant with large leaves that grow at triffid like rates in the Teme Valley. If your car goes in there you have 30 mins to get it out before it is overgrown.

LOL. It's even scarier when you're climbing in to look for a car. If we've had someone go off that side, I always count the marshals back on post.

Anyway, back to topic, and I'm with you. Can't see any reason why something like this can't be used. Hardly a round goes by at any course without a few runs lost to timing problems. I seem to remember some of the drivers having sensors or something placed on a tripod at the line to do something technical, so transponders can't be that sci-fi. It should also make starting easier because you only need to register when the car starts moving, as long as it's behind the line, whereas it works to a fine tolerance of lining the vehicle up at the moment.

[Jedi088]

Would the lining up of the car on the line depend upon where the transponder is mounted currently you can only have a max of 10cm flying start before you break the beam but the transponder(which I think uses a cable buried under the track more expense for the clubs) if it was to be mounted at the rear of the car would allow one car length before timing started yes it would make a slight difference at the finish but negligible compared to the start.I don't think mounting an expensive transponder on a strut sticking out from the front of the car is really a good idea.
Butterflies was another reason for timing errors some years ago possibly at Wiscombe. Best to look upon timing errors as extra track time .

[graham blackwell]

What bugged me the most on the day was that I was told that due to all the anomolies in 4A/4B all the times would be scrubbed, and we'd have a run off. So I shot round again, and recorded an average time, and came what I thought was 1st in class, but when the results were published they'd revoked their decision to scrub all the times, and my time didn't count, and the times from before lunch for my fellow class member was re-instated.

Total cock up, no one knew what was going on.

But I have a GPS datalogger on my Fiesta which does show all the times, and it isn't reliant on a lack of crisp packets blowing round the track, and therefore there are no discrepencies in my mind.

I still don't think timing lights are the right solution. GPS or a transponder on each car is a much better idea.

[Jedi088]

Surely gps would not be accurate enough for timing it could be 100 meters out and transponders would still require cable connection between start and finish line often the weak point at hillclimbs

[graham blackwell]

100 metres? Maybe back in the 90's, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate than 300 feet these days. Try 3 metres (10 ft)

[Jedi088]

OK but that would be +/- for two cars and at an average of 60mph thats more than a couple of tenths Best to keep it simple most of the time the present system works ok.

[redshoes]

Originally posted by Jedi088
Would the lining up of the car on the line depend upon where the transponder is mounted currently you can only have a max of 10cm flying start before you break the beam but the transponder

How in practice a transponder would be used to time a circuit race. With a timing beam there's a finate position to measure (i.e. the front of the car) but for a transponder it would depend on where the transponder was mounted. Say for example 2 cars cross the line almost together, yet on has the transponder mounted in the engine bay and the other behind the driver's seat. In theory the first car could reach the transponder reading point but actually be a few inches behind the second car.

Mounting in the front bumper in the same way sprint/hillclimb beam splitters are would ensure a fair result but would be far too exposed to damage.

For sprints/hillclimbs I was going to say it wouldn't make any difference since the distance between start and finish line would be the regardless of where the transponder is. Had consider the need to be so close to the start beam but as you say a few feet extra run-up could make that important few hundredths of a sec difference.

[graham blackwell]

Sounds like this makes more sense than some first thought.

Accelerometers could also monitor the point at which the vehicle starts on it's run, and once moving, the transponder then sends a signal to "GO". Its got to be fairer and more consistent than timing using a light and a splitter.

[Adam43]

Transponders, accelerometers, etc... These are all things that need to be on teh competing car and hence repeated dozens or hundreds of times). Sounds expensive and messy. I think for hill climbs and sprints it is best if people can just turn up and have a go. Surely this is half the appeal of sprinting (for a lot of people)?

redshoes I was thinking along the same lines as you. Put the transponder as far forward for that close finish in circuit racing, but as far back for that acceleration before the line in sprint! every little helps!

[graham blackwell]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Surely this is half the appeal of sprinting (for a lot of people)?

Turning up and having a go? There's a lot more to it than that surely. Preparation, entry fee's, travelling. You don't just turn up and have a go. Thats what makes it vital that each and every run is recorded, accurately. Sprinting isn't cheap!

And if we eliminate timing beams, then the old problem of people getting it all crossed up as they zoom sideways across the timing line, demolishing the timing equipment in the process, we'd also eliminate the interminable delays whilst organisers try to put everything back together again.

[redshoes]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
redshoes I was thinking along the same lines as you. Put the transponder as far forward for that close finish in circuit racing, but as far back for that acceleration before the line in sprint! every little helps!

What about a typical Clio race, no one has any front bumpers left so no good mounting the transponders there.

Seriously though, unless you have a single make series where the transponders have to be in a specific place I don't see how this would work without the inevitable arguements.

[james_williams]

I have to agree a little with Adam on this one. Transponders and accelorometers do sound an added complication.

I don't think there is an immediate problem with the current timing systems as long as the club running the event is well organised i.e. has a disaster recovery proceedure for system failure or destruction.

I for one am a simple person and when talking about these transponder systems many questions spring to mind. How do they work? Does everyone have to be on the same frequency channel or something? What is their accuracy? What would I need to buy to fit it to my car? How are they calibrated? Can it go wrong (in which case we are back to square one)and what happens if it breaks or becomes faulty, should I carry a spare (more expense)? Is it a fair way of timing depending on where you put it on the car?

I have had a number of runs where my time was not recorded and on one occasion I crashed (expensivley) at Prescott because I was so mad about it, so I understand the frustations that it causes but I suppose its one of those things us hillclimbers and sprinters have to put up with. Perhaps there is a better way, but in my experience the simplest solution tends to be the best and most reliable. I bet if you count up the amount of runs you have done in your career and the amount of timing problems you have occured, the amount of problems would be a small percentage.

Also, people do just turn up to have a go. Thats how most of us get started, running a road car and having a bit of fun!

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by graham blackwel
Turning up and having a go? There's a lot more to it than that surely. Preparation, entry fee's, travelling. You don't just turn up and have a go. Thats what makes it vital that each and every run is recorded, accurately. Sprinting isn't cheap!

And if we eliminate timing beams, then the old problem of people getting it all crossed up as they zoom sideways across the timing line, demolishing the timing equipment in the process, we'd also eliminate the interminable delays whilst organisers try to put everything back together again.

What about the people who sprint their road cars? They do it for the simple reason that it is CHEAP motor sport. I assume that you are in the "higher echelons" of the sport as I can't imagine anyone attending a "clubbie" sprint making such a fuss.

Yes, there will always be problems with timing, but in your case - on the day what exactly did you do about it? Did you speak to the Clerk of the Course to find out what could be done?

[ss_collins]

shiela on my last event I was struck by timing issues, Leving me with an incorrect time, a doubtful time and only one run with a proper time.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by ss_collins
shiela on my last event I was struck by timing issues, Leving me with an incorrect time, a doubtful time and only one run with a proper time.

So what did you do about it? Did you speak to the Clerk of the Course? Any problems regarding timing issues can be easily resolved by having a friendly chat sometimes.

At one of the meetings when I was a trainee Clerk, we had lots of problems with timings and the Clerk and I had several discussions during the day as to what should be done. If my memory serves me right we gave re-runs to anyone with dubious times. In fact the last run of the day was one where we had actually gone and spoken to the driver because we knew the time given by the timekeepers was dodgy. We told him that we had recommended that he have another run. He wasn't going to bother but then when he spoke to several other drivers decided that perhaps he should. It was to his advantage. He took FTD on that last run of the day.

[Fireblade]

Turning up and having a go. Yes, thats what it was in those old halcyon, bygone days. Sadly those days are gone and there are pros and cons regarding those times.

When you think of how much time is actually spent "between the beams" it is not cheap. The faster the hill the less time for money. If you take a top class competitor on the extreme "power hills" such as Shelsley or Gurston or the short tracks such as Barbon it is a lot of money per second.

At the extreme end using class runs only and minimum practice, people such as Graeme Jnr or Fleetwood will have less than 100 seconds total for the weekend. Almost a Pound per second. OK, these 2 normally always qualify for a run off and then there is the bonus of maybe a third practice run on Saturday or even Sunday morning.

In one way it may be better to take the other extreme such as Tony Fisher in his perennial Mini at Loton Park. 4 runs around the 73secs mark gives him a total on track time of 292secs. Nearly 3 times as much as the big boys at Shelsley.
A shrewd cookie is Tony!

There is no such thing as cheap motor sport nowadays but my point is that different people have differing opinions as to value.Although no motor clubs get fat out of large entry fees which are dictated by overheads it would be nice in this day and age for the timing to be consistent at some venues. It must be infuriating to put 110% into a run and then have a no time.

[ss_collins]

Shiela - yes thats exactly what I did, and whilst very apologetic there was not much they could do about it - If there had been a championship resting on it and the same thing happened it would be terrible. I will say this was nobodys fault in particular but just a gremlin in the system.

Luckily I was treating the event as a bit of fun but others were not as it was the first round of a lot of championships.

High entry fees and a lack of venues are killing speed events in the south east... so perhaps raising costs would be a bad thing - that said trnsponders I think should be used for British Championship events, also club series if the organisers can afford a rental stock of trannies.

[listernoble]

I reckon I have done around total 150 hillclimbs and sprints in last 7 years.
A few thoughts;
Timing problems have not been a significant problem,although when they are ,sometimes the start line revert to the old wooden stick thing for lining up,but it works.
Prescott have a new whizzy system,but two weeks ago that went wrong and they used the wooden thing.
GPS is accurate to 5 cms but that can cost a lot.
Transponders can go wrong,so when that happens is it deemed a car problem and so no re-run?
Biggest problem are offs ,which can really slow down the meetings,and these often occur at a higher percentage in one class,but not much we can do about this.
All in all hillclimbs and sprints are the friendliest and possibly cheaper end of motorsport.
Lister

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by listernoble
I reckon I have done around total 150 hillclimbs and sprints in last 7 years.
A few thoughts;
Timing problems have not been a significant problem,although when they are ,sometimes the start line revert to the old wooden stick thing for lining up,but it works.
Prescott have a new whizzy system,but two weeks ago that went wrong and they used the wooden thing.
GPS is accurate to 5 cms but that can cost a lot.
Transponders can go wrong,so when that happens is it deemed a car problem and so no re-run?
Biggest problem are offs ,which can really slow down the meetings,and these often occur at a higher percentage in one class,but not much we can do about this.
All in all hillclimbs and sprints are the friendliest and possibly cheaper end of motorsport.
Lister

Ah yes, the old wooden stick thing. I remember having to use that years ago at Thoresby Park. Its blooming difficult there because the startline slopes backwards away from the start, so unless you have got a really good person on the chock, again you have timing problems!

Regrettably we do not live in a perfect world and mistakes are bound to happen from time to time. As listernoble says, hillclimbs and sprints are the friendliest and cheaper end of motorsport, so if you do have a problem, go and have a chat with the Clerk of the Course and see if your problem (whatever it is) can be resolved.