Cost of Rallycross (Split from Brda Agm)

[mr_atspeed]

Hi people. From what i have read over the last few weeks, most people are only interested in racing for fun...note the word fun. I, for one, spend all week earning my wages which I sometimes enjoy, and for sure, sometimes do not!
I, like most people do not want to spoil my free time arguing over how where and what I do with my race car. We all just want to have fun and race.
I chose rallycross, because at the time, it was well supported, not to expensive and by and large, I enjoyed the company of my "racing buddies", something that was lacking in circuit racing, where I was originally came from.
However, over the last two years, the good natured feeling has gone, which I belive is down to the BRDA not listening to there quantity members, IE, stock hatch and Mini cross, and there underlying aim was to raise the profile of rallycross, raise sponsorship and channel these funds into rallycross at the expence of losing there bread and butter support.
However, I do not believe that this is for the good of the sport. I think all this xenddooussee (cant spell it) business, is all down to money. My personal belief, is that all this is money driven, bottom line, money. The chairman spoke about four hundred pounds not being alot of money for an entry fee. To a average working man, this is more than one weeks wages!!
Perhaps now the BRDA will realise, that at the end of the day, we the bottom feeders can shout very loud, by not attending the race meetings.
Perhaps the BRDA, or some of them, have been ill advised, but im sure that some of these well meaning commitee members stayed on in the belief that they could still help somehow.
Lets hope that EVERYONE can learn from all of the mistakes made these last few months, and rallycross will go forward as it deserves to.
If you read every thread concerning rallycross, whilst people have different opinions, we all want the same thing...good fast rallycross meetings.
Lets hope!!

[Pug620]

Mr atspeed

Cannot agree more with your comments but its still all up in the air! BRDA are yet to publicly anounce what the fees are for the BRDA or BTRDA rounds so come on BRDA and make some anouncement so as to stop all the bickering then we as the clubman can decied what we are doing.

I for one am very encuraged by the discusions of the MDA / RSS and await their next anouncement to what they plan to do for the clubman?

Until all this happen its the sport that is suffering as cars are for sale every were so some people look to be getting out of the sport.

To think i rushed and bought a car at the back end of last year if i had knowen then what we know now i would be keeping my cash in my pocket until things settle.


Cheers

Marty

[Rotweiler]

This is NOW an MSA British Championship, so with this new title comes a price. Before we start a revolt lets wait and see how much the CLUB racing is going up by.
We should no longer compare prices to last year and previous years as this is now a NEW championship for SH. We can however compare the supercar "prices" which were £100 more than SH as they were part of the British championship.
The rep from the new promotion company said that the reg fees for the John Cooper challenge were about £6000 and that isn't even a British Championship.
Back in 1989 (15 years ago) when I was karting at club level it cost £15000 all in, per season, but to go up to British champ Series 1 it was about £40000.

[chris cake]

Rotweiler What Are You Doing Home At This Time , Did You Run ?
Your Quite Right .....

[Peter Mallett]

Just a couple of questions here.

1.Is this all about entry fees or is this a deeper issue?

2.It seems to me that unlike Club (circuit) racing Rallycross runs "National" and "International" level championships together with the "amateur" club championships at the same event.

Now if I am correct that will always be an expensive way to go racing because Major meetings attract higher costs due to TV coverage etc.

So, perhaps the soloutin is to split the "club" racing away from the professional package.

However to do that there must be organisers for the "club" events and an organiser for the major events.

Typical structure fom my part of the sport.

CTCRC runs championships under the banner of the BARC. If I am invited or want to run at an "international" meeting I pay the extra entry fees to do so but its unlikely that an entire season would be run at "international" events.

Another point that occurs.

I read somewhere that Rallycross was invented to provide motorsports action for the BBC during the winter months. Thus the sport was born at a "professional" level.

Makes club promotion much more difficult.

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by Rotweiler

This is NOW an MSA British Championship, so with this new title comes a price. Before we start a revolt lets wait and see how much the CLUB racing is going up by.
We should no longer compare prices to last year and previous years as this is now a NEW championship for SH.

2 Questions

Why does it cost more for it to be a "MSA Championship" ?

Did anyone ask Stock hatch drivers weather they wanted MSA in front of there title at the extra cost?

I would think that most stock hatch drivers are clubmen and as such would prefer to keep the money in there own pockets and keep going with the way things were. After all does it bring any more funds in for the majority of SH and Minicross.

I'd be just as happy to win the SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS British Championship.

Again comes back to the growing gap between the needs of the clubman and the more proffesional outfits at a single event.

[leonidas]

Hang on lads, the main championship was an MSA championship last year. That can't explain the huge increase in fees for this season. All that's happened is that stock hatch has been added to it. Logically this should make the MSA series more cost-effective, as costs can be shared between a larger number of competitors.

Let's face it, rallycross has been a clubmen sport since the mid-1970s when the factories (mainly BMC and Ford) pulled out. There are less than half a dozen drivers who can afford full supercar budgets, and a perhaps a dozen drivers who run 'fully competitive' modified budgets. That's not enough for a series! That's why minicross is so important and why stockhatch was invented in 2000 - to support the grassroots development of the sport and to give it a solid financial base.

Its good to hear that the BRDA are now offering to bring Minicross back into the main series. Maybe they are listening! However there's no point doing this if the fees are so high as to scare drivers away...

[chris cake]

Why do so many people keep on banging on about what our sport was like in the 70/80 and even the 90s . As i have said before the costs are getting pritty high , but
can anybody tell me anything that costs the same as it did in say 1975?
As we are in 2005 surely its time to try to make our sport into what it should be . Ok we may loose some people but there is a chance that people who have looked at Rallycross in the past may now in future come in if the whole package looks more
presentable to sponsors ect?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by chris cake

Ok we may loose some people but there is a chance that people who have looked at Rallycross in the past may now in future come in if the whole package looks more presentable to sponsors ect?

Why does it have to look presentable to sponsors? I'm thinking club classes here. The point may be that the costs reflect the package and that doesn't suit the gras roots racer. We have the same argument in national circuit racing.

But that was my point in my earlier post.

[Peter Mallett]

BTW. We are getting waaaaaaaaaay off topic here. Perhaps a new thread?

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by chris cake

As we are in 2005 surely its time to try to make our sport into what it should be . Ok we may loose some people but there is a chance that people who have looked at Rallycross in the past may now in future come in if the whole package looks more presentable to sponsors ect?

I've no problem with that Chris. However if you make it much more expensive there is a real danger grid sizes will fall. Small grid sizes won't be attractive to the media or sponsors. TV companies aren't interested in small grids and processional racing. They want all-action, full grids and three wide battles.

Also - the media tend not to be interested in sports dominated by rich middle aged / retired businessmen drivers (no offence intended!) who all look alike. They want a range of charismatic media-friendly competitors from all walks of life. They'll say: get more young people / women involved. Get Jenni Lee Hermansson a supercar deal!

That's how the media work I'm afraid...

Yes I know some of the stock hatch cars sometimes look a mess. But if they're a mess the stewards have it in their powers to send the drivers home. When did they last use this power?

[chris cake]

Originally Posted by leonidas

I've no problem with that Chris. However if you make it much more expensive there is a real danger grid sizes will fall. Small grid sizes won't be attractive to the media or sponsors. TV companies aren't interested in small grids and processional racing. They want all-action, full grids and three wide battles.
.................................................................................................... ..................................................
As i pointed out before the overall cost isn't that great .
I don't think grids will suffer because you have to remember that all classes are racing for a british title! If you not interested in that go and race in the creaper clubmans series .
As for tv how many cars do you need to make a good race ? As you said 3, not saying we have 3 cars only but euro rounds only run 4-6 a time .
.................................................................................................... .QUOTE..leonidas..................................................
Also - the media tend not to be interested in sports dominated by rich middle aged / retired businessmen drivers (no offence intended!) who all look alike. They want a range of charismatic media-friendly competitors from all walks of life.
.................................................................................................... .......................................................
How can you say that?
Whats wronge with being middle aged ? Most NASCAR drivers are over 45
perhaps your going to tell me that the media only talk to them as they feel
sorry for them!
The current top drivers aren't all rich just work hard for their sport , i for one
would never be able to race without help from many people .
.................................................................................................... .QUOTE...leonidas...................................................
Yes I know some of the stock hatch cars sometimes look a mess. But if they're a mess the stewards have it in their powers to send the drivers home. When did they last use this power?

The reason that some stock hatchs look a mess is because the contact is
so great due grids which are to large and bad driving . The cars look ok at the start . The damage that looks bad is door /side panel inflicted by some one else and that would be totally unfair to send a driver home for that with the offender just replacing a bumper and perhaps winning the meeting !

[leonidas]

The reason NASCAR took off was because it grew out of the young hot rod community of the 1950s. Look at the early stars of the TV age - young dynamic guys like Fireball Roberts, Curtis Turner, Pete Hamilton, Richard Petty...?

Where are their modern equivalents - the cruisin / Max Power crowd - not in rallycross that's for sure! And they never will be if you make it more elitist!

Nothing against the middle aged, just telling you how the media see it. An EXCLUSIVELY middle-aged elitist sport won't attract serious commercial media coverage.

Sorry but if you can afford to spend around £50-100,000 pa running a top modified or supercar season you're wealthy by anyone's standards...

On the issue of damage, the problem comes when cars are presented for scrutineering in a tatty state. There's no excuse for that. Of course you're going to pick up damage racing - 'rubbin's racing' as the NASCAR boys would say.

[chris cake]

[QUOTE=leonidas]

Where are their modern equivalents - the cruisin / Max Power crowd - not in rallycross that's for sure! And they never will be if you make it more elitist!

answer...........
So why did the so called cruisin / max power crowd waste 2 whole pages in the february issue of the top jap type max power mag BANZAI on the rallycross gp , if their readers arn't interested ?

[QUOTE = leonidas]
Sorry but if you can afford to spend around £50-100,000 pa running a top modified or supercar season you're wealthy by anyone's standards...

answer ...........
If i had to finance it myself i could afford the £50 fifty pounds , You have to work had on backing . I know of drivers who need and get sponsors to pay upto £500000 so they can do a season of british f3 , so if they can do it so can any of us if we work hard ,as we have a good package even as it is now , so stop moaning and lets get on with it......

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by chris cake

So why did the so called cruisin / max power crowd waste 2 whole pages in the february issue of the top jap type max power mag BANZAI on the rallycross gp , if their readers arn't interested ?

That's my point - there is a great potential in rallycross but it needs to be affordable and competitively priced to get newbies in. Putting up costs unnecessarily and turning round to people and saying 'well you can do less races' isn't going to help!

There is money out there but its very difficult for new, young or stock hatch drivers to get it - especially if they're to be relegated to a lower series at places like Wildtracks. And we're not professionals - its mainly the day jobs that pay for the racing.

Finally is it really BRDA policy to deliberately reduce grid sizes? If this really is true they must be the first sporting management organisation in history who want to reduce the numbers taking part in their sport!

Anyway, I guess we have to differ...

[chris cake]

[QUOTE=leonidas]

There is money out there but its very difficult for new, young or stock hatch drivers to get it - especially if they're to be relegated to a lower series at places like Wildtracks. And we're not professionals - its mainly the day jobs that pay for the racing.


ANSWER ...........................
As you now young drivers under 16 can still drive in juniors in the BRC where they can get the coverage needed to move on . As for new people who come into Stockhatch race in the clubmans , get some good results and then start
working on sponsors. Also surely its better to learn you race craft in these meetings with other drivers who have just started instead of getting blown away be drivers who have raced for years?
We don't now what the BTRDA entry fee but is must be less than the BRC.


IT HAS NOT BEEN SAID BY THE BRDA THAT THEY HAPPY TO REDUCE GRIDS
IN ANY WAY I WAS ONLY GIVING AN EXAMPLE.

[silver bullet]

I think the BRDA have the right idea but are moving things on too quickly, as there are not enough competitors for healthy entrys in two championships. Therefore entry fees have to go up.

Everybody harks back to the good old days, but things were very different then.
In the late 80's & early 90's TV coverage was good because of the wonderful sattelite channel Screensport, both the British and European championships had an hour long stand alone programme, also the crash video was very popular with the Havoc & Car Wars series using a lot of rallycross footage.
There were also a lot more drivers with club meetings getting 60 plus cars including supercars and British Championship meetings getting 80 plus. The top division back then could rarely field more than 15.
But perhaps the most telling thing is somthing I found on the back of an old Croft programme. George Shield had given a questionare out to the spectators and people had asked about reducing the spectator entrance fee, the answer was,
The entry fee to the competitor is purposely kept low, and with sponsership almost impossible in todays financial climate, all the prize fund and financial support for the meeting comes out of the gate takings. Rent rates and advertising costs must also be found.

The main thing we need to do now is get full entry's to keep costs down, get large crowds so the circuit makes plenty on the gate, then we can exert a bit of pressure.
If a rallycross meeting pulls in the crowds the circuits will want us to go there.

[Spectator]

A lot of good points there Silver Bullet.
It does seem that things are being moved on rather too quickly.
TV coverage seems to be poor. What happened to the final three rounds of last years championship? It might help to have a commentator who appears to know something about the sport and to show some action other than the finals as we all know it is not always there that the best action is!!
I don't know how well the other rounds were attended but there were several thousand spectators at the 2 rounds at Lydden and at the Brands double header.
We have discussed before that Lydden is the only circuit to share the gate receipts and that Brands would have run at a loss if there had not been a sponsor, due to costs.
Maybe if a way was found to persuade the other circuit owners to share some of the gate receipts the entry fees for the drivers could be kept lower thereby attracting more drivers etc etc.
End result better racing and hopefully a better package to sell to potential sponsors and TV companies.
I think we all agree that most of the paying public come to see the top two classes but there must be a way forward to incorporate SH & minis with a phased programme to newer machinery over several years so as to 'modernise' the entries.
Lets hope common sense prevails and that we can retain all the drivers that we have and hopefully attract some new ones.

[Peter Mallett]

Hi folks. We were getting off topic so I've opened up this thread to discuss the costs of entry fees etc.

Carry on..............

[mr_atspeed]

Why do the circuits need to get gate money? They dont need to, we pay for the circuit.
If all the clubs got together (there goes a pig!!!), and made the circuit owners be responsible and raise there own money through local advertising etc, etc, bringing in the spectators through the gate, we would not have to pay less to race. Look at the amount of spectators in years gone by. My grandfather remembers flyers all over the place, telling them about the grass track racing at the brands oval, I am going back a year or two!! All these people paid to go in. Now the circuits dont bother, build a circuit, and the racers pay to use it. win win situation. This has been on the cards for years, slowly and surely the cost have been passed on to us, the drivers, because its easy money.
When you look at it, would we not all do the same??
But, the but. Do the BRDA, or whoever the operating club is, have to charge such a extornate amount. Not being privy to the inner sanctrum, I dont know.

[Queen]

Lets not forget that Brands charge about £18000 a day for there circuit. The BRDA did run it at a loss last year.

[mr_atspeed]

Yes my point..they charge us all that money...then they grab the gate as well..double bubble..nice little earner!!!

[silver bullet]

I would be interested how much MSV made in total over the rallycross weekend. What with track hire, gate money, money from the souvenir etc shops, go karting and the food concessions I bet it was a large ammount. I'm sure they will be keen to get us back so that should give us some negotiating power.

[King Arthur]

Anybody who attended the BRDA AGM was given a comprehensive break down of how much it costs an organiser to put on a meeting. As an organiser of racing and sprinting as well as rallycross I can tell every body the costs are being kept tight. The cost of hiring the circuit is a major part but normally only accounts for about 50% of the total running costs. The other major costs are Timekeepers, Medical (Doctors / Paramedics / Ambulances), Scrutineers, and the MSA permit. Remember that the Officials are all unpaid volunteers. Therefore if you take Lydden where the circuit is roughly £6K and you add on all the other costs you are looking at a cost of running of approx £12k. You do not need to be a mathematics genius to see that if you only get 60 cars you have to charge £200 per entry just to stay even. Also I can tell you that the costs for putting on a Clubmans and a British Champioship are very similar as most of the costs are dictated by the Blue Book eregulatios particularly the medical cover.

I very much agree with the comments that this is not a Rallycross problem this is a sport problem and a Clubmans problem in particular. All clubs face this and ths is why you are seeing more and more half day race meetings combined with a track day, test day or sprint where you can get a significant number of people on track and boost the Clubs income.

Too many clubs have been running events at a lost and have now run out of funds. It cannot continue.

I have had some experience of working with the oval people who seem to be able to turn in a profit at each meeting but they do not run to the Blue Book.

Unfortunately Circuits and other suppliers do not alter their charge dependent upon the status of an event. A Doctor charges the same be it sprint, race or rallycross Nat A or B.

As an actual example I was organinising a race day and could not get the Doctor to agree his fee as he was waiting to see if he was going to be offered a weekend NHS Trust cover which would have earnt him 4 times what I wanted to pay and he was only in it for the money. I am not having a go at the Doctors I am just trying to tell people the reality. The past when many Doctors and others gave their time freely because they loved and wanted to be involved have almost completely gone. There are still many people who do what they do for the love of the sport but they are reducing fast and the continual aggressive personal criticism does not encourage people to give up their time and pay out of their own pockets to let others undertake and enjoy thier sport.

Remember for us Officials it is our hobby to and I would not go and play golf with people who were continually moaning and having a go.

If anybody would like to see the budget for running a meeting backed up with actual costs I will quite happily go through it with them . We have nothing to hide.

[Minicross424]

Chris
Last time i spoke to you, you told me that you were going abroad racing this year.
Is this still the case or are you now going to support British rallycross?
I do see your point about entry fees but for some of us its hard enough to get the money together now with a mortgage to pay.
Cant of been cheap to hire that supercar last year can it?