Incident handling for Bio-Ethanol cars?

[Alan Green]

Extract of an article on Crash.net
"History will be made in the Dunlop MSA British Touring Car Championship next [this] weekend at Croft when Fiona Leggate makes her entry into the series at the wheel of her Vauxhall Astra Coupe - which will be the first car in the championship to run on bio-ethanol fuel. "Bio-ethanol is a viable fuel for the future and people will see that when they watch my car in the BTCC," the 25-year-old farmers daughter said. "The championship is the perfect arena to demonstrate there is no difference in power between a car using bio-ethanol or petrol. The only difference will probably be the smell!"
---

Anyone have any further info on this type of fuel in terms of incident handling before we head up to Croft at the weekend?

Al.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

Anyone have any further info on this type of fuel in terms of incident handling before we head up to Croft at the weekend?
Al.

Ethanol is a form of alcohol and it has been blended with gasoline for road car use as 85% gasoline, 15% ethanol. Under those circumstances, nomal fire abatement measures should be satisfatory.

IRL & CART cars run on Methanol and a bucket of water the primary abatement for marshals. A tanker would probably be the Fire Tender. Othe exotic specific "Professional Use" materials are provided by IRL & CART's safety crews that follow the circuit.

Another possibility is a mixture of Ethanol and a Diesel fuel derivative which as also been referred to as "Bio-Ethanol".

Check with the NASMAX crew that ran Le Mans for more information.

[blueflagger]

We treat ethanol-petrol blend fires the same as we would a straight petrol fire in my area. Ethanol-diesel isn't a fuel we've used for racing here so I'm not sure how it would be handled.

BTW, they'll go on about how ethanol pollutes less than petrol, but it isn't true. It pollutes more. It just throws out different pollutants that don't get measured in the same way, but still end up in your lungs. You can find study results and news stories about the pollution on the Web. It would be nice to know the effects of what we breathe out there on the banks but I haven't found studies on ethanol in lungs yet.

[Hepatic]

It's also an irritant, so if you get it on you make sure you notify the medical crew so they can ensure it's properly washed.

[Sheila M]

Found this earlier:

Bio-ethanol fuels? Now don't laugh, but bio-ethanol is alcohol distilled from organic products such as, believe it or not, wheat or beet sugar.

When blended with petrol at a rate of 10% and burned in conventional petrol engines, bioethanol produces less carbon dioxide greenhouse gas and local pollutants, provides four-to-five times more energy and is a renewable energy source. You simply grow more in fields.

Full article is here http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/featur.../biofuel2.html

From what I read Al, your best bet would be to chuck a bucket of water on it. How big a bucket of water would depend on the size of the blaze, obviously! Alternatively, foam should do the trick.

If you are still concerned, try contacting Mike Farnworth who may be able to assist you. I'm sure he must be including fire fighting of odd substances in the syllabus at Myerscough College.

[Alan Green]

No concern here, I'll be waving a flag from a safe distance It's the F-BMWs that I'm concerned about after my last BTCC meeting (Donington P2).

Just something I noticed on the great world wide wotsit and thought it might be good to know about for briefing at the weekend.

Thanks for the advice all,
Al.

[Dutch chap]

Can't forsee any problems. You can put it out with powder or foam, nothing special. As Sheila mentioned, water does the trick too, but you've got to be sure you've got enough of it.

[aprescott]

Be warned though, ethanol burns very hot and with NO flame, just a heat haze.

[JimW]

There a couple of things which need to be said.

For conventional hydrocarbon fuels (petrol, diesel) with between 5 and 20% of ethanol added, then there is absolutely no difference in the fire-fighting techniques and equipment or protection used by marshals. (In the UK that is a combination of dry powder and “Light Water/AFFF” foam.)

Ethanol, like methanol, burns with a very cool flame compared to petrol. Otherwise those silly drinks where you swallow the burning spirit would not be possible. Ditto “fire eaters”.

(For those who escaped science lessons, ethanol is what is generally referred to as the “alcohol” in drinks. It is not very toxic. Methanol or wood alcohol is chemically related and is quite poisonous when taken internally or breathed in or absorbed through the skin. After all, that is why Governments put methanol in “Methylated spirits” so that you will poison yourself if you try to drink meths and evade the Excise duty on the 80% normal ethanol which makes up meths. )

If you spill petrol with added ethanol on your skin, what needs treatment is the hydrocarbon element, not the ethanol. After all if you spill your malt whisky on your arm you just lick it off (or for the very fastidious, wipe it off). And we won’t go anywhere near what consenting adults do with brandy in private!

Methanol is a bit different. It is much more toxic than ethanol and needs to be washed off with lots of water.

Don’t use water on a fire which involves petrol or diesel if there are sufficient quantities involved to form pools of the fuel. They are both lighter than water and will float on top and spread. (The fire brigade can use very high pressure water sprays which cool the flames and put the fire out with less risk of floating the fuel.)

Using water on a methanol fires work because, unlike hydrocarbons, alcohols mix with water and can be diluted to the point where they no longer burn. Remember that you are in no danger of your pint of beer (~5% alcohol by volume) catching fire. You have to warm the brandy for the Christmas pudding blaze because being only 40% abv, it will burn but not very easily.

Regards

Jim

[whatapalaver]

Does that mean we should, or should not, take long straws to sample?

Diesel tastes foul!

I read something about bio-fuels (it may surprise a few that I can read) which appeared to questions lots of data that had been gathered. Some state it takes more energy to create than it gives off which questions how useful it may be. It seems that we are at early stages of developement at making and using the stuff. For the BTCC anything that puts a car on the track has to be good news. For the rest of us if it helps stave off the £1 a litre for LRP - bring it on.

[JimW]

Reading a trade magazine recently I came across some more information. This was a news item about a report published in Natural Resources Research by two US academics. They summarised "There is just no energy benefit to using biomass for liquid fuel. These strategies are not sustainable." They estimated that you used more energy producing the fuel than the fuel delivered.

Second point. The article referred to the "EU Biofuels directive (2003/30/EC)". It also referred to a fuel E85 in a way which suggested that this was defined in the Directive but this was not clearly spelt out. Reading EU directives is not a job for those who wish to retain their sanity so I have not followed up that reference.

E85 is apparently 85% ethanol and 15% petrol. and Ford and Saab have production cars capable of using that fuel.

For our fire-fighting purposes I guess that means continue as before but with an eye to treating it with the properties of methanol in mind. I don't know whether the 15% of "petrol" will mean it floats on water or not.

Either way a combination of dry powder and AFF foam should do the job - no problems.

Regards

Jim

[rescue dude]

And we won’t go anywhere near what consenting adults do with brandy in private! [/font]

Jame's is there something your not telling us.

[Ty Nicholson]

Spoke with Nasamax crew at Le Mans in 2004 and, as already stated elsewhere within this thread, was told to use water and if not available "revert to standard fire-fighting procedures".

After sourcing a number of water and AFFF extinguishers for Post 100 they weren't needed as their car caught fire elsewhere!

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Ty Nicholson

Spoke with Nasamax crew at Le Mans in 2004 and, as already stated elsewhere within this thread, was told to use water and if not available "revert to standard fire-fighting procedures".

After sourcing a number of water and AFFF extinguishers for Post 100 they weren't needed as their car caught fire elsewhere!

How inconsiderate of them after all your efforts

[sizzle]

Now you guys have had a couple of years of experience over there with E85 has there been any changes in the theory of fighting E85 fires. It is being introduced into V8 Supercars here in Aus this year and there is a bit of misinformation or misunderstanding about its dangers or otherwise.

Any advice?

[Ty Nicholson]

The Nasamax crew never came back to Le Mans and that was my once and only direct experience (in preparation only) for handling a bio-fuel fire so can't help I'm afraid.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by sizzle

Now you guys have had a couple of years of experience over there with E85 has there been any changes in the theory of fighting E85 fires. It is being introduced into V8 Supercars here in Aus this year and there is a bit of misinformation or misunderstanding about its dangers or otherwise.

Any advice?

We haven't made any changes to equipment or training that I'm aware of so treat it exactly the same as any other vehicle.

[Dave Brand]

No different to petrol as far as I can see.

For the definitive answer do a web search for 'MSDS E85'.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

No different to petrol as far as I can see.

For the definitive answer do a web search for 'MSDS E85'.

Just looked up a local E85 MSDS and it looks the same as a standard 100% petrol one.

[JimW]

If anyone knew where we could get some local to Donington Park, we might have a play next weekend?

Jim

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

If anyone knew where we could get some local to Donington Park, we might have a play next weekend?

http://www.arunautogas.co.uk/E85-UK_...g_stations.htm

[The Fat Clerk]

At the Formula Student event each year, we have quite a few of these sort of cars, haven't had any major problems. It's the couple of Hydrogen powered ones that spook me.

[Col_Rugby]

I wish I could put the picture up of you sat on the chair doing a good inpersonation of the garden gnome, you looked really spooked in that one....lol

[ss_collins]

It's the couple of Hydrogen powered ones that spook me.

Why do you think that when they turn up to the startline I am not there!

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by JimW

If anyone knew where we could get some local to Donington Park, we might have a play next weekend?

Did you have a play with some E85 Jim??