Best Passing Move - Suzuka 2005

[mac]

Alright, plenty of passing at the Japanese Grand Prix. The question is, which was best?

Obviously we can only comment on the ones we saw - from which I have drawn four finalists (listed in alphabetical order):

- Alonso on Schumacher

- Alonso on Webber

- Raikkonen on Fisichella

- Sato on Trulli


My pick is Raikkonen on Fisichella. Reasons:

Alonso was lucky that Schumacher had his head screwed on otherwise they would have spun off into the Sea of Japan. It was pure ruthlessness, saying, "let me go or we're both having a big one." Michael had to back off. He didn't exactly go around the outside, but actually took the normal racing line, forcing Michael to lift. Brilliantly ballsy, but technically not that great a move.

Alonso on Webber was again a ballsy move, forcing the issue down the inside. Webber could have stayed on the inside and not even allowed him back on the track. Webber moved back to the outside, and from there it was a textbook pass.

Sato? Well ......

Raikkonen's pass was ballsy and a really good move. Fisi screwed up and compromised his exit at the chicane. Fisi made it really hard by diving to the inside before creeping out on Kimi. Kimi just braked later and drove totally around the outside of Turn 1. Sure Fisi made a mistake, but the Finn still had to make the most of it. And with the pressure of the last lap, it was my favourite one of the race.

[Gerben24]

Remember, Alonso passed Schumacher round the outside TWICE. Both were great, because the entrance to turn 1 is maybe just as fast as 130R. While watching the race, I thought Kimi's move was the move of the race, it being the move for the lead in the LAST lap! Having calmed down now, I think the move of the race was Alonso's pass on Schumacher at 130R!

PS. where is the poll.

[mac]

I've never done polls before, thus don't know how to do them.

Could someone please add a poll for this neanderthal?

[Kicking-back]

I think all the moves were good - the obsession with rankings and lists is the scourge of the modern age

[Gt_R]

Technically, i'd vote for Kimi's move Fisichella.

Why?

1) Although the Mclaren is the faster car, the gap in performance isn't between Mclaren & Renault isn't as huge as that between a Renault & Williams/Ferrari.

2) It's the last (or 2nd last) realistic chance of an overtaking move for a win.. We don't see overtaking moves for wins very often.

3) Kimi had to outbrake and outfox Fisichella, and the Mclaren is set up with a short 7th gear...(bearing in mind both cars have equal fuel load = almost empty)


In the cases of Alonso's move on the Ferrari and the Williams... it's pretty much getting the pure car advantage to make the swoop. It's interesting to watch definitely, but in the case of 130R, replays show that Alonso is already slightly ahead of the Ferrari before the turn and being on the racing line, the position is for the taking.Technically, it isn't even a move on the "outside of 130R".Furthermore, he was stuck for far too many laps behind the Ferrari (which could have cost him the win) when the Renault is carrying a lighter fuel load (almost 4-5laps less). Similarly, on Mark Webber, the differences in performance almost meant a move is inevitable, and a dive on the inside isn't as nice as one from the outside.

But this poll is one which basically pits the move Alonso made and the one Kimi made...and in regards to difficulty, as well as other factors, Kimi's move takes the win

[Dan Fielden]

Mine is Alonso on Webber.

Reason: 100% comitted to the inside took more risk than raikkonen IMO, two wheels on the grass at 190MPH just a great move to watch had me out of the chair.

I feel that Raikkonens move was more due to Fisi defending when there was no need and compromising himself. IMO Raikkonen was expected to pass him, not taking anything away from the finn, it was a great move but for me Alonso gets it.

Indeed "Where is the Poll?"

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by mac

Alright, plenty of passing at the Japanese Grand Prix. The question is, which was best?

Alonso was lucky that Schumacher had his head screwed on otherwise they would have spun off into the Sea of Japan. It was pure ruthlessness, saying, "let me go or we're both having a big one." Michael had to back off. He didn't exactly go around the outside, but actually took the normal racing line, forcing Michael to lift. Brilliantly ballsy, but technically not that great a move.

TV showed the body language of MS's car after the first move at 130R...it visibly said 'Oh my god, i can't believe he's just done that' it really looked like MS had backed off in order to draw breath, in admiration, absolutely fabulous stuff!!

In fact Kimi almost caught him napping and Schuey managed to regain his composure just in time so fair play to him as well!!

IMO Kimi's move on Fizzi at the end was a bit like a Porsche homing in on a Morris Minor, the speed differential was so great and he was on a mission and there was only gonna be one outcome, whereas Alosno's on MS (1) AND on Webber were more explosive and i thinl more exciting.

[John Turner]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that Kimi's move on Fisi was special at all. Fisi pretty much gave it away. I'm with Dan, here; Alonso's move on Webber was top drawer as was his move round the outside of Schumi earlier.

[Mr V]

Either of the Alonso moves, but i liked the one on Webber especially, onto the grass and kept his foot in

[pole2pole]

Kimi's move on Fisi is my pick of the race. The reason behind this is the fact that Kimi on friday had another engine change and things where looking gloom. Starting from 17th once again provided us with the chance to see Kimi as his very best. With that move on Fisi on the final lap to take the lead was the perfect ending to a mind blowing race performance from Kimi

[Heebeegeetee]

The list should be:

-Alonso passing gawd knows how many on lap 1.

- Alonso on Schumacher

- Alonso on Schumacher again

- Alonso on Webber

- Alonso on Klein

- Alonso on those we weren't shown on TV

- Raikkonen on Fisichella

- Sato on Trulli

Raikkonen on Fisi was easy because Fisi made it so. Kimi didn't have to do anything at all. So it would have to be Alonso on Schumacher the first time, 'cos a) it was bloody hard to do, and b) we clearly saw Kimi couldn't do it.

Actually, I rather see FA's move on Schumi as him saying to Schumi "either you let me by, or you kill me. If you touch me or ease me on to the grass right here and now at this speed, I'm dead. It's your call"

And I reckon a very impressed Schumi smiled to himself and said "no, I won't kill you. This time. Watch me keep Kimi back for yonks, though".

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Technically, i'd vote for Kimi's move Fisichella.

Why?

1) Although the Mclaren is the faster car, the gap in performance isn't between Mclaren & Renault isn't as huge as that between a Renault & Williams/Ferrari.

2) It's the last (or 2nd last) realistic chance of an overtaking move for a win.. We don't see overtaking moves for wins very often.

3) Kimi had to outbrake and outfox Fisichella, and the Mclaren is set up with a short 7th gear...(bearing in mind both cars have equal fuel load = almost empty)


In the cases of Alonso's move on the Ferrari and the Williams... it's pretty much getting the pure car advantage to make the swoop. It's interesting to watch definitely, but in the case of 130R, replays show that Alonso is already slightly ahead of the Ferrari before the turn and being on the racing line, the position is for the taking.Technically, it isn't even a move on the "outside of 130R".Furthermore, he was stuck for far too many laps behind the Ferrari (which could have cost him the win) when the Renault is carrying a lighter fuel load (almost 4-5laps less). Similarly, on Mark Webber, the differences in performance almost meant a move is inevitable, and a dive on the inside isn't as nice as one from the outside.

But this poll is one which basically pits the move Alonso made and the one Kimi made...and in regards to difficulty, as well as other factors, Kimi's move takes the win

Wow, why write a post myself if you said exactly what I wanted to say, especially with regards to Alonso's moves?

[N I Tram]

Fisichella should never have given Kimi such an easy chance in the end - Kimi only had to use his brain to prepare that opportunity, which stemmed from Giancarlo going defensive unneccessarily. I think most of the drivers would have taken that chance in a faster car. Alonso's move on Michael gets my vote for sheer bravery and chutzpah - some drivers would not have reacted quickly enough and caused an accident, but Fernando knew fully well that Michael would not. Knowing your opposition and their strengths and weaknesses is a skill in itself.

[chunterer]

Uh huh, i thought Fizzi kept his bott in as long as he could into turn one though? Kimi had to turn in fairly late.

But i'm agreed, Fernando's first move on MS at 130R and then his attack on Webber later on were both the 2 overtaking moves of the season by a long long way...

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by pole2pole

Kimi's move on Fisi is my pick of the race. The reason behind this is the fact that Kimi on friday had another engine change and things where looking gloom. Starting from 17th once again provided us with the chance to see Kimi as his very best. With that move on Fisi on the final lap to take the lead was the perfect ending to a mind blowing race performance from Kimi

Sorry, but what does any of that have to do with the quality of the passing move. That's all we are judging on this thread, not the quality of the drive!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Jordi

Wow, why write a post myself if you said exactly what I wanted to say, especially with regards to Alonso's moves?

Yes, but for all it's technical excellence and analysis, Gt_R has ignored the most crucial influence in these cases; the quality and ability of the respective defending drivers. Both Schumi and Webber were driving with great determination, knew where to place their cars and, most importantly, knew how to get out of the chicane properly too give themselves the best pace and opportunity to defend at the end of the straight. Fisi, blatantly didn't, so I maintain that Kimi's overtake of Fisi was not of the quality of either of Alonso's moves.

[Canberra>karter]

Originally Posted by Heebeegeetee

And I reckon a very impressed Schumi smiled to himself and said "no, I won't kill you. This time. Watch me keep Kimi back for yonks, though".

So true, my vote is FA's move on MS at the 130R as well. Kimi did great, but it's simply what you expect from that Mclaren package. Alonso's was anything but expected

[EHS]

Alonso 130R on TGF.

[2fast]

Any passing on the front straight (Or medium to long straight) is just that, a "pass". So the best pass move has to be Kimi's on fisi.

But the best "overtaking" move will have to be Alonso's 130R overtaking of Shumi. Passing a car just before, during or after turn(s) will carry more kudos points (If you play project Gotham racing).

[Dan Fielden]

Originally Posted by 2fast

Any passing on the front straight (Or medium to long straight) is just that, a "pass". So the best pass move has to be Kimi's on fisi.

Yes in theory, But when you take into account that Alonso has put two wheels on the grass at 190MPH in order to take the inside, it is no longer a "Textbook" move, it is somthing special and then to even comit to turn into that corner with dirt on your tyres is just pure class in itself not to mention having to pass a Williams at the same time.

[Knowlesy]

I thought Alonsos move was best as it was exceptionally brave, for all 130R's recent ruination. Especially considering Schumachers hideous move on Fernando heading down towards Stowe corner in the 2003 British GP. The second best would have to be his move on Webber, onto the grass and Webber is a tough one to get round!

Raikkonens move on Fisi was good, but would have been a whole lot better had he passed a racer rather than some guy popping to the shop for some milk.

[2fast]

Originally Posted by Dan Fielden

Yes in theory, But when you take into account that Alonso has put two wheels on the grass at 190MPH in order to take the inside, it is no longer a "Textbook" move, it is somthing special and then to even comit to turn into that corner with dirt on your tyres is just pure class in itself not to mention having to pass a Williams at the same time.

Agree 100%, totally forgot about the Webber pass. So both pass and overtake of the race goes to the 05 Champ.

[Sharky]

Alonso's move was fantastic. Period. It don't matter if he was already "marginally" ahead. he had no way of being sure that he was completely in front of Schumacher. Had that not been the case both of the would have probably crashed at very high speed. He took the chance. It was a very risky gamble.

I think too much bias is being placed on Kimi's pass because it was on the last lap. Had it been for a middle position on any other lap throughout the race it wouldn't be as discussed as it is now. Was it the most important pass of the race? No doubt about it. In fact, it will probably turn out to be the most important pass of the season as it may end up being fundamental for Mclaren's championship. But if the question is about quality. Alonso passing Schu on the outside of the 130R will be on my mind forever.

BTW, what's all this talk of Alonso's pass being less because it was too risky? 2 weeks ago people were complaining that he wasn't a worthy champion because he didn't take any risks and just cruised to the championship. So, which one is it?

[luke]

Alonso's move going into turn one on Webber does it for me. Kimi's on the last lap around the outside at turn 1 was again astonishing.

[Knowlesy]

Face it Sharky, nobody can bear to admit Alonso is a worthy champion! I guess if others used their head like him they would be similarly reviled.