Williams: Engine supplier for '07 - your thoughts

lookleft · 24 Apr 2006, 06:13 (Ref:1593436)

It was announced during Imola that Frank Williams will make a decision on engines over the next few weeks. Choices seem to be remain with Cosworth or move to Toyota (Lexus?). No details of any "factory" status from Toyota have been revield.

Question is, which engine should they go with and why?

The Cosworth has been a little fragile this year but seems to be pumping out the right numbers. Seems a tight relationship in terms of both sides working together. Will we really see Cosworth get left behind with development? They started out with the same blank piece of paper as the big teams and seems they did a better job than most - why is it assumed this has to end?

Toyota have produced very reliable engines, thought to be amoung the top 3. Huge backing and facilities. How would such a relationship work vs. the factory team? Are Toyota "F1" enough for Frank? What if Mike Gascoyne ends up at Williams, could that relationship work?

Tough call to make this far out IMHO. Will it come down to a financial decision or will Williams get a peek at some dyno charts.....

Gt_R · 24 Apr 2006, 07:14 (Ref:1593451)

1)
I've always held the opinion that if Frank Williams wants to get the Toyota deal, he might as well get it with the "Lexus" branding. A win-win situation, as Toyota gets double exposure for their brands with barely any cost increase (instantly hooking Lexus with a strong F1 brand and a fan base), Williams is assured that they are not relegated to secondary team by Toyota (with equal and highly developed engines).

There's little point in securing a customer deal and being made to pick up scraps left by Toyota.

2)
If a Lexus-engine isn't available, perhaps the next best alternative would be to cosy up with Cosworth on a multi-year deal. The reason being that given the security of a long deal, Cosworth would be better convinced to increase their investments into the programme.

There are doubts about how much ability Cosworth has in finance and resource to keep up developement, but Red Bull (under pressure for using V10s) have indicated that they are willing to use V8 Cosworth if they are given the SAME engine as Williams. If so, with increased budget from supplying two teams, Williams and Red Bull can reap reward from a stronger engine supplier with enough resource to develop.

3)
Failing both of which.... i think a Toyota customer engine would be the next best bet...

Skam85 · 24 Apr 2006, 08:27 (Ref:1593506)

I think Cosworth is the way to go... Toyota, well, they're a big company, and reliable, but did having Ferrari engines get Sauber anywhere? For a team of Williams stature, having to stoop to the level of having customer engines from a team they should be scoring more points than, shouldn't be an option.

Marbot · 24 Apr 2006, 08:31 (Ref:1593514)

Toyota are probably thinking that it may be just a tad embarassing to give Williams,who at the moment are performing better than Toyota,the same engine.

rustyinsthoz · 24 Apr 2006, 08:48 (Ref:1593535)

If Toyota are prepared to supply Williams with a factory spec engine, then the decision for Williams is a no brainer. Long term, Cosworth will not be able to keep up the development that the factory teams can.

Pingguest · 24 Apr 2006, 08:49 (Ref:1593536)

Until now Cosworth seems to be a good partner. The Cosworth is still considered as the most powerful engine of the field.

Marbot · 24 Apr 2006, 08:53 (Ref:1593541)

Here's a link.http://www.crash.net/news_view~t~Wil...~id~128820.htm

rocketracer · 24 Apr 2006, 09:07 (Ref:1593558)

toyota deal seems fraught with danger - imagine the embarrassment for toyota, even if it is rebranded as a lexus...

cosworth would be the better option of the two you would think....

or what about the possibility of sourcing a williams-renault?

kipper · 24 Apr 2006, 11:29 (Ref:1593677)

I would imagine that Williams will go for a Toyota deal. Whilst the Cosworth engine has been impressive so far, the development budget is likely to be rather limited. In addition, should Red Bull buy Cosworth then this may close the option open to Williams as I would assume that Cosworth would then supply the two Red Bull teams. Given that Toyota must be hungry for some success, supplying a high profile team like Williams, makes a good amount of sense.

**touringlegend** · 24 Apr 2006, 11:41 (Ref:1593684)

I think we could within several years see Toyota as an engine supplier only in F1, so they may well be looking to tie up with a top team.

dazbaz_99 · 24 Apr 2006, 12:05 (Ref:1593701)

I would like to see a Williams Judd, I would also like to visit Mars...

Marbot · 24 Apr 2006, 12:18 (Ref:1593713)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazbaz_99

I would like to see a Williams Judd, I would also like to visit Mars...

There should be an old Williams Judd knocking around somewhere.And i'm sure that a certain chocolate manufacturer would be more than willing to give you a guided tour of one of their factories.

Silk Cut Jaguar · 24 Apr 2006, 13:34 (Ref:1593769)

Toyota are trying to introduce the Lexus brand in Japan, so giving Williams a branded engine could help them boost the Lexus image at home and abroad with relative ease.

With Toyota's budget always in question it would also give them a foot in the door with a top team if they decided to step away and solely concentrate on engines in the near future.

avsfan733 · 24 Apr 2006, 15:51 (Ref:1593847)

I can't see the Lexus as a safe option. I think cosworth is totally the way to go. Unless the terms of the Lexus deal are very good and include some gaurantees and some openness on Toyota's part I would be worried about the end result of Williams competing with /beating the mother team.

FPV GTHO · 25 Apr 2006, 14:56 (Ref:1594699)

Personally i think theres more options available than Toyota/Lexus and Cosworth.

They were talking with Honda also before signing with Cosworth, but you might assume there could be some bad blood between the 2 now. Supposedly it was too soon for Honda or Toyota to increase supply, but Honda sorted Super Aguri out pretty quick...

Renault may offer customer supply to keep up their image of success on a small budget, by being able to spread out the development further.

If RB really want to buy Cosworth, meaning RBR go back to the Cossie engines, that frees up a Ferrari supply, but that will be expensive.

BMW, dont even need to go there.

Mercedes, i cant really think of anything to suggest they'd be for or against customer supply...

Either way it seems Toyota are the only ones to gain by giving Williams factory engines with Lexus badges, and surely that would be the most attractive offer for FW. Either way i personally think the lack of a major sponsor is more important than lack of 07 engine deal for now

DeoValente · 25 Apr 2006, 16:16 (Ref:1594743)

Number 1 choice must be cosworth. With such a conventional car being so quick it must be powerfull. It sounds like it does 1000 more revs than any other unit.

Number 2 id like to have a look at what that Renault engine is doing, and accompanied with all that nice software.

I wouldnt vote for Toyota. Seems quick but customersupply would always be slower. I think theyere behind Cosworth and Renault in a lot of areas too.

Snrub · 25 Apr 2006, 18:13 (Ref:1594796)

Teaming up with a manufacuturer is good because there would be money freed up for investment into the car. The problem is that manufacturers are not going to give a competitor identical engines if there is a chance that the customer team could beat the manufacturer (eg. Williams vs. Toyota).

I think an interesting option would be for Red Bull (both teams) and Williams to pool resources to fund Cosworth development. That way it is a 3rd party with no vested interest in helping one party vs. another and the supply will be fair. It would lower the costs for each team.

chillibowl · 25 Apr 2006, 21:44 (Ref:1594950)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snrub

The problem is that manufacturers are not going to give a competitor identical engines if there is a chance that the customer team could beat the manufacturer (eg. Williams vs. Toyota).

since the intro of the two engine rule their has been at least once case last year where the Sauber had a new Ferrari upgrade and the 2 Ferrari's didn't (dont ask me remember which race though). so it can go either way.
either way i think this problem would be solved by calling them Lexus engines and then you have no problem. if anything Toyota would probably be harder pressed to make sure their luxuary brand Lexus isn't beaten by a regular Toyota.

rocketracer · 25 Apr 2006, 22:32 (Ref:1594981)

ponies of the engine is one thing, but factory integration of chassis and engine is significantly important i am led to believe...

i cant believe that toyota / lexus would devote big resources to the matter, and the engine data etc would be more freely flowing from a non-competitor (ie cosworth)... plus, the integration with engine and transmission (do toyota have a seamless box yet?) means that williams might be concerned about passing on all their data, so there would be hurdles to be overcome to have the toyota working well in a williams...

Plus, Mario Thiessen was on record as saying that the engine side of things isnt so influencial in having a competitive F1 team these days (but that was when their unit was an underperformer...) so not having massive development on the unit williams use for the year isnt as big an issue as it would seem, if the unit is fundamentally a good one (which it seems as though the cosworth is)...

Notso Swift · 25 Apr 2006, 23:09 (Ref:1594996)

FW said

Quote:

engine choice is both technical and commercial,

Since neither of the two favourite engines is a bad one you would think that a cheap Lexus motor would be very attractive for a company with out a Principal sponsor
Remember Lexus is extensively marketed in the US already.
From the Cosworth side, they will be keen to keep Williams as they need a figure head team, I am sure they are expecting to be able to supply more teams in the future, and with a particular eye on 2008. If they supply 3-4 teams with V8's then do you think the Williams cost may come down from GBP30M? I do

goodhorsehymn · 26 Apr 2006, 00:44 (Ref:1595039)

Stick with the Cosworth!

JeremySmith · 26 Apr 2006, 01:26 (Ref:1595052)

I would like to see them stick with Cosworth to be honest..

Notso Swift · 26 Apr 2006, 05:50 (Ref:1595124)

Yes, I should have said I would like Cosworth and Williams to stay together. But that is a sentimental call.
Cosworth, Williams, an Aussie for WDC, followed a couple of years later by a Fin (OK, I know he races as a German)

mac · 28 Apr 2006, 06:39 (Ref:1596704)

The Lexus thing is as good as done for 2007.

aj_308 · 28 Apr 2006, 11:15 (Ref:1596882)

I like the idea of them sticking with Cosworth.
It fits the whole "little battler" image :-)

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