Getting experience with a Reynard 883

[tristancliffe]

Hi Guys

Sorry if this is a regular type of topic to come up - there are lots of single seater trackday threads, but none of them that I looked at last night seem to have the right answers to my questions. Bear with me, and try not to get annoyed with me.

Right, first I'll just explain the scene a little bit...

My father has bought a Reynard 883 F3 car, and we've got it ready to use. In fact last Sunday we were at Bentwaters Park with Borough19 for a sprint meeting. It was my brother Andrew and I driving, and we've both got NatB Speed licences.

However, whilst sprinting is great - cheap, safe and friendly - the actual track time for a driver is very very low. On top of that, and this is the difficult bit in many ways, sprints only allow two drivers per event, but my Dad, my brother and I are trying to get into that seat. The best option would be a General Test day, but to do these it seems that a NatB Race licence is required, which we don't have and don't (as yet) want to pay for.

So, 3 drivers with speed licences living in Norfolk want a decent day in the car so each driver can have several laps at a time. But where?

At somepoint we'll obviously have to do our ARDS test, but we don't want to bother with that expense until we've decided whether F3ing is our cup of tea - I'd much rather spend that money (£200+ each) on driving the car rather than taking tests that MIGHT be needless. If you see what I mean.

Trackdays don't interest me, as the mindset is just not right in my opinion.

Perhaps you can give some advice on how to get 3 people experience in an F3 car on a proper race track (ideally) without spending too much money. Your thoughts?

[tristancliffe]

Hmmm, just realised this is the 'same' forum that Ten-Tenths use... Never occured to me that Ten-Tenths and CircuitDriver.com would use the same forum. Sorry, I guess that means that this thread make this one redundant!

[skmanuk]

You can test at Llandow nr Cardiff without a race license.

http://www.llandow.com/

[andy97]

Originally Posted by skmanuk

You can test at Llandow nr Cardiff without a race license.

http://www.llandow.com/

A bit far from Norwich, though! How about trying the guys who run trtack days at the former RAF Sculthorpe. Its still a track day but I think that they have two differenet layouts and you may be able to get single car running. Failing that, try Bruntingthorpe.

[MikeBz]

I've done a general test day at Mallory on a speed license in the past...

Mike

[tristancliffe]

Mallory isn't too far.

*looks up phone number*

Llandow and Pembury, two others suggested to me so far, are just a bit too far away for a day trip... But if needs must then, err, the devil drives.

[skmanuk]

I would think it extremely unlikely that Mallory or Pembury will allow a single seater to run in a general test session without holding an MSA Nat B.

[Barry Pomfret]

It is probably an RAC stipulation regarding the track licence that drivers must have a current race licence,( insurance requirements?). A few years ago we had a driver testing one of our Formula Fords at Silverstone in Feb., I had not renewed my competition licence at the time but had my previous years Int. B licence with me and had also driven the Safety Car at a F3 meeting at Silverstone previously, they still wouldn't let me out in the car for a few laps just to check the handling!

[SpawnyWhippet]

Apologies if this seems a bit flippant, but if you are struggling with funding your Nat B license, maybe running an F3 car isn't the right choice?

[tristancliffe]

Yes quite flippant. I'm not struggling for money (for example I've just spend £800 on nomex stuff and a GRP seat, another £100 on a sequential shift light, £200 on custom Willans harnesses etc etc), I'm struggling to justify spending £450 on something that doesn't involve me driving the car, when the licence expires at the end of the year anyway, and the season is coming to an end soon. I'd rather do my ARDS in January and get 12 months of Test Sessions.

Making wisecrack comments a month after a thread was current just to make yourself look better funded isn't exactly a clever response. But then, Australia is populated purely by convicts. Touche you say?

[andy97]

The ARDS Course qualification last for as long as you stay "current". Its only the licence that has to be renewed @ £48 (ish) pa (for a National B). And you can still do Speed events on it, I think. You'd still be able to do a fair few wednesday mornings at Mallory or test days at Snetterton in the remaining 3rd of the year and may be you could still get a couple of races in at Stowe or Lydden with the BARC-SEC or SEMSEC.

Did you ever try Llandow, Sculthorpe, Bruntingthorpe or any of the other airfield venues that people suggested earlier?

[SpawnyWhippet]

Cheap insults from a newbie won't help your cause either.

My comments weren't intended to insult you, and I really struggle to see how you drew the conclusion that they were intended to reflect my funding position in any way. You were the guy who stated you didn't want to pay for a Nat B race license afterall.

If you are so flush with cash that you can afford to pay twice the usual rate for seat harnesses and overalls, then do your ARDS test now as it doesn't expire and get your license next year.

For what its worth, I am not Australian, I just live here. I find the inhabitants somewhat more friendly.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I'm struggling to justify spending £450 on something that doesn't involve me driving the car

But of course driving your car DOES involve you getting a licence, as you have probably found out. As probably previously stated, once you have a licence, it cost £48/year (IIRC) to keep it current - you don't redo an ards test every year -only if you let your licence lapse for a few years.

If you don't want to get a licence, get a car you can drive on trackdays - there are plenty about that are pretty nippy, although not in the same league as an F3 car. You have chosen an expensive way of getting track time, I think the minimal cost of a licence on top of what you have already spent is money well spent.

With that car you should probably be doing Club F3 anyway - now that IS a good way of spending a lot of cash!

Motorsport IS expensive - the licence is about the cheapest part of it!!

James

[schomosport]

IF you are going to go racing, particularly in something as exotic as a 20 year old F3 car, then you have a whole heap to learn. You can do it the hard way and learn it all for yourself - slow, painful, discouraging, expensive - or you can benefit from the wisdom and advice of others who have trod that path before.

There's a host of people who follow these single seater forums - some race, some don't. Some are fast, some are slow. Some are rich, some are skint. Some are engineers and experienced mechanics, others barely know one end of the car from the other. Sorting the good from the bad is your job. Many will share their knowledge, experience and skills with you - but you aren't going to last any time at all in motorsport if you alienate people before you even try and find out which of the above categories they fall into. Its a very small world......

Nice website by the way.

[Neil1982]

Originally Posted by andy97

The ARDS Course qualification last for as long as you stay "current". Its only the licence that has to be renewed @ £48 (ish) pa (for a National B). And you can still do Speed events on it, I think.

Andy

Indeed you think correctly. As you know Mark and I both competed in Speed Events before taking on the daunting task of Mono but did so with Race Licences because as has been observed it allowed us to go pounding around Mallory on a Wednseday morning instead of going to school!

Neil.

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Yes quite flippant. I'm not struggling for money (for example I've just spend £800 on nomex stuff and a GRP seat, another £100 on a sequential shift light, £200 on custom Willans harnesses etc etc), I'm struggling to justify spending £450 on something that doesn't involve me driving the car, when the licence expires at the end of the year anyway, and the season is coming to an end soon. I'd rather do my ARDS in January and get 12 months of Test Sessions.

Making wisecrack comments a month after a thread was current just to make yourself look better funded isn't exactly a clever response. But then, Australia is populated purely by convicts. Touche you say?

Hi

Have you done much track driving/karting etc? or is this the first time you will be driving this F3 car?

A

[tristancliffe]

I think you've missed the point of this thread! I didn't mean to be rude, but your post came across as rather condescending, and I responded as such.

I know the ARDS stays 'current' if I renew it. But I don't want to have to renew it just a couple of months after I got it. Hence I will be doing my ARDS at the earliest possible opportunity next year.

The harnesses are custom because we have three people wanting to learn to drive this car - my father, my brother and I. We are all quite different in size, and a fixed 'standard' harness isn't sufficient, so we've had to have one made for us with adjustable bits on it - non-standard for F3, and hence custom.

Twice the usual rate for overalls? These are 'cheap' nomex overalls. I value my safety, and accidents don't wait for you to get a decent suit. I thought about spending a hundred quid on Proban ones (which is what my brother has done, although I've currently paid for them), and decided I'd rather have the piece of mind that in the event of an accident I've done all I can to save myself. I think with clothing you spend what you feel your worth, and I'm consider my skin without burns to be worth more than £200.

I can drive the car without a race licence at sprints - you need a non-race licence, which is what I have. It costs £33, and you get it quickly. Right now that seemed the better, cheaper option for us. Racing will come, but will come later. I've already considered ClubF3 and Monoposto.

I haven't intended alientating anyone. I've taken the advice I recieved earlier in this thread, and checked it out. I happen to be lucky enough to be an experienced engineer (though only recently officially qualified as such with a degree, but that counts for almost nothing nowadays ), so I know my way around a car. As for driving, I admit I could do well to learn from someone else at a Race School, and I'm sure at some point I will do that. But to start with I'm quite happy being grubby, slow, demoralised but grinning.

I wish I was young and free enough to takes days off school to go testing. But full-time work doesn't really allow me to do that.

Last one now... Sorry if I missed any of your points/questions out - I didn't get an email saying there were replies, even though I'm subscribed to this thread...

Experience - a bit of historic saloons with Lancia Fulvias, millions of rent-a-kart laps (which only teach you so much), and a few sessions of TKM. I was actually looking to get involved in TKM properly before we got this F3 car.

The whole point of this venture isn't to be competative. It isn't to win. It isn't to impress anyone. It's to simply experience slicks and wings single seaters. Currently sprints are doing that (slowly). Testing will come next. Then racing if I can pursuade my mother that I won't be killed like my brother was in a road accident - my parents aren't keen on the open wheels touching each other. I don't want to spend a lot when I don't have to (safety gear I felt I do have to), and so far our costs are actually very reasonable.

I still value all your advice, but I must stress that I am not trying to be a professional racing driver, with testing, racing every weekend etc. We just want to enjoy the car in the best way possible, without massive outlays. If I get my ARDS in January then thats good. There is no rush. The car can and will wait for me. I have plenty of other projects from decorating the house to rehearsing for a play to keep me going.

I'm off now to watch the F1 qually, then to set up the suspension on the Reynard. Glad one or two of you have liked the website by the way, but I'm finding it hard to find the time to write the articles in full, so everything other than the news is still pretty much at 'placeholder' status. Visit again in six months and I'll have written more...

Thanks and regards,

Tristan

Yes I tried the tracks people mentioned - they want race licences to test, and I don't want to do normal trackdays in a single seater (and not many allow you now anyway). This will happen next year now.

[mrsweety]

Good post!!!

Yep your website looks nice and will be interesting to follow!. Regards your racing! just be careful as these are fast car's! have you thought about getting a gearbox kart? these are VERY fast and will give you some cheap training and mucho fun *that's what I race* and like you am toying with the idea of club F3 but may well pick Mono/F Renalt after chatting to a few bods.

Coming from Gbox karts is going to be hard finding something with equal thrill for the cash

Good luck and have fun

A

[tristancliffe]

I can't say that I'd given gearbox karts a lot of thought, primarily because I know nothing about them - my limit with 'box karts is (correct me if I'm wrong) Junior Rotax, which seem to have gearboxes.

It might be another class though, but I watched some at Whilton the other week, and I'm sure I heard gear changes. Or dodgy throttle control

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I can't say that I'd given gearbox karts a lot of thought, primarily because I know nothing about them - my limit with 'box karts is (correct me if I'm wrong) Junior Rotax, which seem to have gearboxes.

It might be another class though, but I watched some at Whilton the other week, and I'm sure I heard gear changes. Or dodgy throttle control

Try 170mph 0-60 in 2.5 seconds

About 3.5 times the power of a Rotax Max! which have one gear

Like driving a champ car!! frightening :-)

http://www.250superkarts.com/

then check the about link

[driftwood]

Having caught up with tis thread again and read a few comments ( even the flippant ones! ) the point some guys are making here and i have said earlier is that a day testing at say mallory or Snetterton is far better for ££ than going to some sprint events
Seat time is paramount and if you are sharing the car hopping in /out of f3 car at a sprint meet ot test day is not going to aid yr cause
Sadly u need to bite the bullet and pay the money for the ARDS test ( i call it the tests ryhmning with a ships anchor co u have to be 1 to fail it!) once u have done it you will not need to do it again so long as you renew RACMSA licence every year ( you can lapse 1 year poss 2 with race signatures)- i paid the £50-60 each year for the past 24 years and 5 years i didnt run in a car/kart
its cheaper to pay the money and always worth having yr licence to go onto the track
get a car race licence as it allows you to do karts rally sprints as well no extra charge

If you and yr dad/Brother get car licence sorted it opens up other days for you to run at and taking a day of fmidweek to run the car is a pleasure to get away from work

[tristancliffe]

Agreed, but to get all three of us through an ARDS test is a lot of hassle, and works about at about £1200. That's a lot in my book!

I know we're going to have to bite the bullet eventually, and I know once we've got our ARDS then the test days will become far better value for money. But at the moment sprinting two or three times (if I can squeeze in the cost/time to do one at Lydden in October) suits us fine.

But I WILL see you* at a test day in the new year, I assure you

*or at least you'll see some pictures and comments from me about it if I don't actually see you there

[driftwood]

i also think u can get around the ARDS test with some karting and sprinting signatures on the licence but i bet if u add up the cost of these events its cheaper to pay the ards test however approach a school im sure a compromise can be reached with 1 of them
if u dont ask u will not know

[driftwood]

i also think u can get around the ARDS test with some karting and sprinting signatures on the licence but i bet if u add up the cost of these events its cheaper to pay the ards test however approach a school im sure a compromise can be reached with 1 of them
if u dont ask u will not know

[skmanuk]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Yes I tried the tracks people mentioned - they want race licences to test, and I don't want to do normal trackdays in a single seater (and not many allow you now anyway). This will happen next year now.

I can assure you that Llandow does not require a race license. We regularily run new drivers there in single seaters on a normal road license, the last two as recently as last week. You will also get more track time than almost any other circuit offers, all for £60/car per day.