Are Safety Regulations Killing Club Motorsport.... (merged)

[midgetman]

....is the question posed by Andrew English in the Telegraph Motoring Section this week:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...26/mfmsa26.xml

Stress-related ECGs, helmets, overalls and "ritzy motorsport emporia advertising extensively in the motorsport press" come under his very entertaining cosh.

I recommend the article to all on this Forum, whether "for" or "against" HANS and the like......

(PS If the link dosn't work 'cos I'm no good at posting, it's telegraph.co.uk-->Motoring section or your local newsagent

[MGDavid]

Hurrah - nothing like having Fleet Street on our side...

[JohnD]

You do need a doctor's medical every year for the over 45s, but not a stress ECG, unless you are into Truck racing or have an International Licence. No, not logical Captain.

Also, he complains that his "pristine" rarely used race harness will become outdated. Wel, when you have your own DB5 and can afford to race it now and then, you will take the belts out for the rest of the time. Busy racers have a harness that gets a lot more stick, in use and knocking about the car the rest of the time.
And do quilted overall and a neck brace REALLY make drivers think they are immortal?

Nevertheless, he does have a point.

But, but, but......
When I think that motorsport is too safe, I lok at this picture:
http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ersclubss5.jpg

John

[Al Weyman]

Some very valid points that I certainly agree with especially deteriation of belts.

[barry johnson]

Having returned to racing after a lengthy lay off I have to agree that some of the safety rules are well over the top and will reduce the number of competitors at club level. The car I purchased required new belts and after purchasing same contacted the manufacturer to ask why the short lifespan, his reply was that it is in the FIA interest to limit life as the manufactueres have to pay a substantial amount of money to re-homologate the belts every six years. I also contacted the makers of my wifes car ( porsche ) who said they expected the belts to be as effective after 25 years of normal use as on day one. Helmets, well the old fibreglass ones did used to off after 10 years or so,according to an old aquantance who owned Everoak helmet manufacturers, but surely modern technology must increase lifespan beyond that and overalls if treated correctly must be similar. The company that overhauled my extinguisher said that it should be ok but nobody ever knows till the cable is actually pulled. I can see why track days are becoming so popular and when all my stuff runs out thats probably where I shall head off to.

[midgetman]

What I liked about the article was the acceptance that risk varies.

I appreciate JohnD's point about the 9 dead drivers, but remember those were professional sportsmen paid to be at the edge of motorsport. We, on the other hand, are much slower middle-aged gentlemen hugely enjoying ourselves but probably never troubling the scorers, let alone the edge. Is the risk factor as high for us as F1 in the sixties? I've consistently contended not.

>>>>"can afford to race it now and then, you will take the belts out for the rest of the time"

Please avoid going down the "rich man in an Aston" class-warfare route. As my bank manager will tell you, I'm by no means rich but I will still take my belts out and store them to prolong their life. It just means taking a little care - same with helmets & overalls. Barry Johnson's Porsche analogy is far more relevant, thnaks Bary a valid comment.

That said, I appreciate it's difficult with the "one-rule-fits-all" policy, which is why I prefer to see it up to scrutineers to apply common sense whether a 10-year-old piece of kit is still up to the mark, just as a one-year-old one can be knackered.

[Al Weyman]

I think the guy is right, when they have eventually killed off the sport with Hans this and FIA that then I hope they will be proud of themselves.

[R59]

My brother-in-law wondered why I would need a stress related ECG. He's a retired Squadron-Leader, and never had one in his life, and was involved with Tornado's at the end of his career.

Even my doctor doesn't see the need for it, and the "we recommend you have a tetanus booster" bit - as it's standard practice to administer anti-tetanus jabs at hospital when you're admitted for a motor accident. Like the other issue of having your blood group on your overalls - could be dangerous, so hospitals ALWAYS test, and ignore it - just in case it's wrong (wearing someone else's overalls, or replica F1 overalls with "Michael Schumacher" on them (sad but true!)).

The issue of belts, helmets, etc... all to do with litigation no doubt. But it does focus the attention of people who do not look after their safety equipment.

And John's comment about that photo of the 17 drivers... in those days, they were sitting in cars just as Frank Gardener described them, in many cases, and inferno waiting to happen.

A friend of mine is restoring a pre-war Bugatti, and the frightening thing about it (other than it's value!) is that every "last owner" person who actually raced/hillclimbed the car perished in flames! A 30-or-so gallon fuel tank, made out of alloy thinner than a coke tin, rivetted together. Coupled with a flat floor skin, if the tank split, the fuel surged forwards under the driver's bottom, and then proceeded to catch fire....

The car will be fitted with a proper ATL bag cell, so that problem won't be there anymore.

It won't have any rollbar or harness, so no worries there then!

I think it will take some pressure from competitors (those who have the medical backgroud) to get the MSA to re-consider it. It wasn't that long ago they dropped the requirement for a normal ECG at 40, perhaps they can be convinced that the stress related ECG is similarly pointless. It also makes more sense for the driver's own GP to carry out the medical as they "know" the patient, and will be more au-fait with their history.

Maybe we'll all be doing track days?

Or setting up a non-FIA affiliated organisation to run meetings and licence competitors!!! Ooo strike me down with a lightning bolt for suggesting such things!

Rob.

[barry johnson]

Rob ! set up a rival organisation ??? this was actually mooted many years ago and when the blazers had stopped choking on their G&Ts they issued an ultimatum that any circuit that organised a race meeting for a breakaway organisation would never hold an International race again or any RAC organised championship. What it would take is someone like Jonathan Palmer to head up a coup but is that very likely? Returning to safety was the kit all those years ago that bad, I remember driving alongside Dave Mathews as his capri summasalted along the bank at silverstone in 73 obviously he sustained injuries but sadly it was an eye injury that finished his career, Brodie suffered two broken legs but if you had seen it from where I was I think you would have to agree that the injuries were less than the severity of the accident conveyed.So what I am trying to say is that do we need the same level of safety as for example a WTCC car , I personally think not, safe yes, but not overkill.

[JohnD]

59,
You're wrong about the place of fire in the deaths of that unlucky generation of F1 drivers. But I was wrong too:

I looked up the histories of all the drivers in the British GP of 1964, in that extraordinary source, Autocourse ( http://www.autocoursegpa.com/default.htm )

Of the seventeen, only six (only!) died within six years, two more in 1972, not the nine I said. Of those eight, three died in a crash that involved a fire.
So nearly half did not live to retire from driving in F1.
Of these who died, only a third died from fire.

I make this rather pedantic point, to show that there was a lot more to the danger of F1 then than just fire.

It is also important to note that this was the year before the first GP of Jackie Stewart, whose epiphany on safety WAS related to fire, in that he was soaked in fuel and unable to exit his crashed BRM just three years later in 1967.

And, 59, I regret that your friend's Bugatti will need a roll over bar. He should read "Motor Sport Now!", the Summer 2006 edition, p. 51, Rule Charges article. Proposed changes to J 20.14.1 (exclusions to the Section Q requirements for roll over bars) delete the exclusions for periods A-E. In other words, roll over bars for all cars.
"This proposal has the support of the Historic Committee." With that support, I don't see how it cannot come into effect.

John

[EvilPumpkin]

I have to wonder how much insurance comes into these rules as well? Some of these rules really sound like they're more to show due diligence in the event of someone suing that genuine safety concerns?

It might be interesting to get a list of all legal actions and insurance claims that have been brought against FIA and/or the MSA in the last few years. I wonder how many of them relate to older belts, older helmets and heart attacks?

[midgetman]

I have to agree EP. Much as I'd love to see "good old common sense", just imagine the position of a scrutineer who passed a belt which subsequently did not perform sufficiently.

It's all a part of our tick-the-box "safety" culture. A scrutineer isn't an expert in safety-belt manufacture, so he is reduced to checking that the bolts are secure an that it's in-date. He's not qualified to give any other opinion, so the FIA are compelled to give a use-by date that *should* mean even abused belts are still safe.

BTW the folly of this is shown by the fact that I have a set of pristine belts that were in a shunt last year. They're in-date FIA and would pass scrutineering......but lord knows how much they've stretched so they're adorning my garage wall.

[johnw]

He's back on the case!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...6/mfmsa126.xml

[JohnD]

That was a sidebar on the same newspaper page as the original article!

All I can say is (and pax, midgetman), £1700 for a helmet????
That's more than my car's worth!
Okay, okay, how much is my head worth, I know, I know.
But if I spent that much on safety kit, I couldn't go racing - it's a judgement.

John

[Al Weyman]

Now how better I wonder is it at the silly price of 1700 quid. The tanks I race are bloody strong from the factory built to over the top road car American regs, double skinned roofs etc and i daresay I would not need exoctica like a £1700 helmet but if I was racing a BOSS F1 car then that may be different. So just maybe they should look at the catagoury of car you are racing as well, for example if I was involved in a 120mph shunt in my car or a Lowcost I know what I would rather be in as I like a bit of steel around me.

Right back out to the garage now to spend yet more time and money (third time now) trying to reduce the exhaust sound on my car to tie in with yet another silly MSA reg.

[carsten.meurer]

what surprises me is that 10 year old helmets seem to have passed the test
without problems !

often i take older helmets apart for restoration or to turn them into
collectors items, and there is a difference to all the interiour materials.
deterioration is worse on some brands than other, but it is present at all,
may it be unused old helmets, or worn ones.
the foam deteriates, the styrophor gets less flexible and less resistant, and
glues went hard and brake rather than holding parts together.

normal lifespan on a snell helmet always was 7 years, new test out plus two years for old ones.
unless you have the bad luck in needing to buy a new helmet in the final year
before a new norm comes out, you should get a proper lifespan out of your
purchase.


in general i have the feeling for a long time, that everything that is said to be safe and introduced to the right channels with fia becomes mandatory pretty
soon afterwards.

helmets need to be flameretardant ?
i was just told by a big motorsports retailer while on the subject of safety, that the new mandatory roll cage padding could well be used to light a barbeque... its that eassy to put it alight !

and its so hard, that you might hit the cage itself... now where lies the sense in that ?

regulations for club racing need to be as basic as possible, to get everyone
who is interested onto the grids rather than trackdays !
the backdoor that too high saftey cost, or even the pure fuzz of getting what you need to have open up, causes the high cost of entry fees with low grids to crawl in and finish the job of killing club racing !

if you could race a standart road car on 60s tracks, would it really be too
dangerous letting them out on road tyres and standart trim today on safer tracks ?
maybe tracks are to safe !
with every step to make tracks safer, they become faster.
make them wider, add some flat curbs, add some concrete run offs - all to
f1 standarts. a motorway where you are flatout with small cars all lap round !

soon club racing will be the safest thing on earth !
everyone stays home in his garage and meetings are just on 10 10th...

[midgetman]

Carsten, I thought Andrew English had been reading your posts when he wrote the article BTW, I heard that one manufacturer's FIA roll cage padding actually drips molten plastic onto your racesuit in a fire......

Pax agreed John - by God 1700 quid is a stupid amount to pay for a helmet and not have a hard couple of seasons planned out for it! One of the ritzy motorsport emporia saw him coming

[ss_collins]

I think Andrew does read tenths - the chap really does know his stuff and has competed himself, writing is great too.

[flagwaver]

There is another suggestion get all drivers to state that their vehicle is safe.
Same for the medical. After all that is what happens at most most track days.
Now whilst this route would put the problems of safety clearly on to the driver. Would it keep more people driving & would it make racing safer?

[R59]

This rollcage padding is a joke. I found that it wasn't fireproof at all, yet it was "FIA approved".

Now take your ordinary pipe lagging foam. I had some that was "UL94/V0" spec which is "self extinquishing" when it comes into contact with fire. However, should the scrutineer pick up that the foam on the rollcage is "pipe lagging" and not "approved rollcage padding", then it'll be "no good - take it away and fit proper stuff".

Paying £1700 for a lid? If I were racing something like a LMP1/2 car regularly, then yes, I'd expect to pay that for a high quality super lightweight bonedome to save my feeble neck muscles a bit! That's the price of such things. I'd want Carsten to paint it properly though......

Rob,

[Robyn Slater]

I,m currently racing pre65 motorcross under AMCA rules.
The scruts are only checking machine eligability and not machine safety.
I suppose this lets them off the hook in the event of any claim.

[Piglet]

I'm not entirely sure why Andrew spends most of the article criticising the MSA before then recognising that the majority of regulations are imposed on them by the FIA!

Given the judgment in the Watson boxing case the MSA and other governing bodies are in a no win situation. If they don't make adequate regulations and a competitor can demonstrate that the outcome of an event was reasonably foreseeable then they will almost certainly be liable for any loss caused. If the FIA have issued regulations and the MSA haven't implemented them then that is in law pretty good evidence that it was reasonably foreseeable.

Sadly competitors do sue the MSA (and the organising clubs and circuit owners), although in fairness to them I'd imagine it is the life insurance companies that are behind the litigation. If they've had to pay out half a million quid on a policy then they will want to recoup some of it where they can.

Sadly common sense isn't always evident in this world and I don't see that that the governing bodies have any option but to regulate. In an ideal world perhaps we could trust every competitor to regulate themselves, unfortunately I don't think that this is something that we could rely on.

[Alan Raine]

An interesting article, most of which I agree with.

I'm in my early 50's and have not raced for over 10 years but would like to do some more. I still have my trusty Formula Ford so it shouldn't be too difficult. I have very little money so will only spend what I have too.

Rebuild car - £300 (It's still in farly good nick, just need to replace nuts and bolts and rebuild engine)
New tyres - £200
New Helmet & Overalls £500 (Old ones out of date)
New seat belts - £150 (a guess)
Timing Transponders etc - £500
Ards Test - £250
Licence - £50
Medical - £350 (if I have to have an ECG)

That's £2300 and I have not got on the track yet! I've not got that sort of cash so it looks like a quick rebuild and the odd Track Day with old tyres!

[Alan Raine]

Misgiuded rule changes aren't just a recent thing.

In the 80's it was decreed that single seaters couldn't have the fuel filler in the cockpit. That's fair as if your upside down the last thing you want is being soaked in fuel from a leaking cap. We had to move the filler behind the bulkhead and into the engine bay. So the the filler cap is now near a nice hot exhaust manifold - no danger there then. In the end we left the filler cap where it was and made a cover that looked like it sealed it from the cockpit. One scrutineer noticed what we had done, but agreed it was far safer than having it over the exhaust so let it go. He just made sure we had a decent seal on the filler cap.

Common sense ruled!

[Al Weyman]

Alan; the MSA have new rules from 2005 and you do not neccessarily have to take your ARDS test again, I did'nt and was in a similiar situation as you. If you are on record as a National A licence holder or have the correct amount (6) signitures on your class B and can prove it then you are in. I did not have the signatures but fortunately I kept a copy of many of the results sheets of events I racedin and also submitted copies of a few programs for good measure and they accordingly issued me with a licence and I did not have to take any tests not even written.

Piglet;

I see what you are saying but it does not detract from the essence of the article that for what ever reason it is killing club motorsport and I think we all must agree that is a fact. However I want toi know and in fact has it happened yet, what will be the outcome of a death or serious injury in a Trackday event? Surely the organisers will be just as wide open to litigation as a race event, whats the difference?