Meaningfull Rallycross Discussion

Steve Gibson · 16 Mar 2007, 18:12 (Ref:1868433)

I have been sat on the side lines reading on a regular basis, thinking I should say something, then thinking somebody will only say that I am pro ROC or they will dig something up from last years British Rallyross Finals or Superprix and thought "can't be bothered" now with the threads about Lyden and Khumo Tyres having been closed due to the amount of "mine is bigger than yours" and "we are better than you" rubbish being posted was only doing harm to Rallycross, lets try and have some sensible posts about the pro's and cons of control tyres and any other topical items that with the input of diverse minds might just make this something worth talking about.
I know there are drivers that post under a pseudonym so go on make yourself known and lets talk sense.
There are two main bodies organising rallycross in the UK BRDA / BTRDA with the British, BRDA and BTRDA Rallycross Championships and PSM / MDA with the Rallycross Open and MDA Rallyross Championships and the Rallycross Superprix

Mods
If there are any posts that start "mine is bigger than yours" or "we are better than you" please don't close the thread just edit/delete the posts and censure the poster.

How's this for starters
Topic No 1
Tyres, how will it affect the drivers, how many used Khumo's before this and those that did not will it have any effect on where you race this year.

Topic No2
Should all rival promotors be locked in a room and not let out untill they agree to run rallycross for the benefit of everyone that spends their hard earned money to compete or their own time to marshal.

Rallycross can be great again or it could be just as easily be destroyed!!!!!

RXfan · 16 Mar 2007, 18:44 (Ref:1868460)

I can only really comment on point 2 as Im just a mere spectator which takes me on to the point what about us? Its not cheap to get in to any event though in my opinion always good value for money, but if things carry on as they do and the 2 series cause a complete split then that value will be deminished.
Yes get them in a room with a few drivers representing all levels of the sport and dont let them out until they agree to work as one and help to make rallycross strong healthy and united. 1 championship with the super prix at the end of the season would be ideal.

Steve Gibson · 16 Mar 2007, 18:53 (Ref:1868465)

Agee about the spectators lot, unfortunatly the circuits tend to call the shots on admission charges and rarely share it with the organisors, but it's good to know that you think Rallycross is usually good value for money, but don't tell the circuits that as they will think "we can charge more"

chunder · 16 Mar 2007, 18:58 (Ref:1868470)

RXfan, never had a truer word been spoken mate!

Let's hope that those involved are able to see the light after all the eyars after *****ing and finally just see sense.

I do also hope that the tyre thing doesnt hinder this, as can you imagine the problems with one series running a brand and another running anotehr brand, the whole thing is so crazy it beggars belief, it really does! Surely they dont expect people to do one meeting on Kumho and anotehr meeting on Avon, its insanity and power crazed madness gone too far.

Its like expecting a GP team to turn up in Melbourne with Michelin then Monaco comes round and they say sorry you gotta use Bridgestone.

they might be cheaper but cmon guys its a bit laet in the day!

WJM · 16 Mar 2007, 19:27 (Ref:1868491)

Can someone explain to me if, and if so what, difference there is between the tyres you have to use in the BRC and the proper Kumho Rallycross tyres? Because in the other threads it was mentioned that these are standard Rally tyres and not the Rallycrosstyres they (actually don't) use in the ERC?

PhergAthor · 16 Mar 2007, 19:56 (Ref:1868508)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJM

Can someone explain to me if, and if so what, difference there is between the tyres you have to use in the BRC and the proper Kumho Rallycross tyres? Because in the other threads it was mentioned that these are standard Rally tyres and not the Rallycrosstyres they (actually don't) use in the ERC?

But they do use Kuhmo's in ERC, and winning events with them. But only when it rains. Maybe it rains all the time in the UK, so they have chosen the right tyre.

But it doesn't have to be a disadvantage to run on a control tyre. The FRC just renewed their controle tyre contract with Kuhmo, and the French do have one of the strongest national championships in Europe.
It's a question about money, and if the organisers can spend it well, it could do some good for British RX.
But it hinders any driver to sign a sponsorship deal with another tyre manufacterer.

TWIGLET · 16 Mar 2007, 20:05 (Ref:1868513)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibson

Topic No 1
Tyres, how will it affect the drivers, how many used Khumo's before this and those that did not will it have any effect on where you race this year.

Nobody has used these tyres yet (in England), as said previously, they are a rally tyre. Not a rallycross tyres.
The decision will not affect where we race but when we race.

WJM · 16 Mar 2007, 20:21 (Ref:1868520)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhergAthor

But it doesn't have to be a disadvantage to run on a control tyre. The FRC just renewed their controle tyre contract with Kuhmo, and the French do have one of the strongest national championships in Europe.

But do they use C30's or other tyres, that's the question? I tried looking up the French regulations on www.ffsa.org. It only states that you must use Kumho tyres, and that you can only use a limited amount per racemeeting. I don't see that they specify a specific type of tyre, but I could be misreading.

bucko · 16 Mar 2007, 21:07 (Ref:1868549)

i have used kuhmo's for the past couple of seasons Even though i do selected rounds the 1st set i bought have only just worn out , but i m not sure if they are the same compound to what you have to run now , Mel always told me when you go out spin them up to get them hot as poss , but i do know they where never as soft as avon /yoko's , i never had any probs with them ,and where at the right price i got value out of them .so those on a budget they are ok ,

winnie · 16 Mar 2007, 21:30 (Ref:1868561)

i am sure the tyres are tarmac rally tyres, with the same compound rubber as the kumho rallycross tyres, but less depth of rubber. Mike Sellar used these same tyres as Kumho dont produce an 18" rallycross tyre which is he needs for his clio. They are avaliable in various compounds - speak to kumho for advise.

Steve Gibson · 16 Mar 2007, 21:39 (Ref:1868565)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWIGLET

Nobody has used these tyres yet (in England), as said previously, they are a rally tyre. Not a rallycross tyres.
The decision will not affect where we race but when we race.

Has anyone used Khumo before in Rallycross, not necessarily the ones that you will now be restricted too now what I mean is those that used Avon or Yokohama or whatever, can they/will they use Khumo and will it cause any problems? Other than spending more money.

Also now several replies and not one bit of mine is bigger... we are better......going on, just goes to show we have common ground when rules are laid down, keep it up.
Anyone got any other thoughts on topic 1 or 2.
If not lets have topic 3.

Cryos · 16 Mar 2007, 21:43 (Ref:1868573)

I have just got an email back from kumho europe today stating that they do not do the rallycross tires in 6x14

Steve Gibson · 16 Mar 2007, 21:46 (Ref:1868576)

Quote:

Originally Posted by winnie

i am sure the tyres are tarmac rally tyres, with the same compound rubber as the kumho rallycross tyres, but less depth of rubber. Mike Sellar used these same tyres as Kumho don't produce an 18" rallycross tyre which is he needs for his clio. They are available in various compounds - speak to kumho for advise.

Go to Khumo Motorsport web site it tells you what the tyres are. And yes winnie you are correct they are listed as Tarmac rally tyres

bucko · 16 Mar 2007, 22:10 (Ref:1868595)

does anyone know if mel is still involved now ?,
i have only ever used severely worn avons and yoko's so cant really comment, on these as they where well passed there sell by date .

golfvanman · 16 Mar 2007, 22:30 (Ref:1868610)

Quote:

Has anyone used Khumo before in Rallycross, not necessarily the ones that you will now be restricted too now what I mean is those that used Avon or Yokohama or whatever, can they/will they use Khumo and will it cause any problems? Other than spending more money.

ive used them all the time on my TT and they are fine, even tried the rally tires as has Mike sellar and Russell in there clio's .

The Eye · 17 Mar 2007, 01:01 (Ref:1868714)

If top drivers in the ERC uses Kumho they can not be that bad!! Michael Jernberg and Per Eklund are Kumho drivers! Michael Jernberg von the last race in the SRC and it whas very dry!! So it is not a wet whether tyre only!!

Chessmsport · 17 Mar 2007, 08:02 (Ref:1868924)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibson

Topic No 1
Tyres, how will it affect the drivers, how many used Khumo's before this and those that did not will it have any effect on where you race this year.

I have no problem with using control tyres, but had I finished building my car , being told that I had to buy and use a particular tyre just 3 1/2 weeks before the first race would of severely pi***d me off, even people who currently have Kumho tyres cannot use them because they will not be marked. Thats what might make people decide to race elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibson

Topic No2
Should all rival promotors be locked in a room and not let out untill they agree to run rallycross for the benefit of everyone that spends their hard earned money to compete or their own time to marshal.

This will never happen. I think the various organisations are pushing each other forward for example the BRXC got TV coverage last year because the RSS had got it. So the competion is a good thing, what worries me is that there are not enough competitors to go round and will dilute the various championships. We probably have the strongest (apart from possibly France) national championships going but we have to remember this is because of the amount of Supercars we have, should we see these drop to the level of a few years ago then I think Rallycross is in serious trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibson

Rallycross can be great again or it could be just as easily be destroyed.

Rallycross IS still great but could easily be destroyed is more of a statement.

Steve Gibson · 17 Mar 2007, 08:56 (Ref:1868938)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJM

Can someone explain to me if, and if so what, difference there is between the tyres you have to use in the BRC and the proper Kumho Rallycross tyres? Because in the other threads it was mentioned that these are standard Rally tyres and not the Rallycrosstyres they (actually don't) use in the ERC?

We still don't know can someone tell us which tyre they use in europe, then we can find out what the differance is.

Chessmsport · 17 Mar 2007, 09:36 (Ref:1868966)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibson

We still don't know can someone tell us which tyre they use in europe, then we can find out what the differance is.

In Europe they use an ECSTA S700 which is a specific rallycross tyre which seems to be derived from a circuit slick and are cut to an FIA homologated pattern (some europeon drivers sponsored by Kumho do not always run on them! ).

The BRXC tyre is a rally tyre C03/TW01.

Steve Gibson · 17 Mar 2007, 10:11 (Ref:1868981)

Right now we know what they use in europe, what we now need is some one who can tell us what the differance is and wether either is better and or more suitable for the job.
What is worrying is if Drivers Sponsored by Khumo don't always use them what do they use instead?

Chessmsport · 17 Mar 2007, 10:43 (Ref:1869015)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibson

What is worrying is if Drivers Sponsored by Khumo don't always use them what do they use instead?

Its not really worrying its just that I guess other tyre suppliers have a better dry tyre on some tracks/conditions.

Sorry cant help anymore than that as my knowledge of rubber is limited

But talking of rubber whats made up of 365 condoms ? A Goodyear ! Sorry

silver bullet · 17 Mar 2007, 13:34 (Ref:1869118)

Well Steve, one thing we are all agreed on is Rallycross is a great sport and we all want to see it get stronger.

I am a driver who posts under a pseudonym, but I think most of you know who I am.

Topic 1. Tyres, I am not a Supercar or Supermod driver so I can't really comment on the tyre thing with too much authority, but If I were one I would probably say :- Ok we have to use Kuho tyres. They are putting some money into our championship and that is great as long as it is used wisely. But why are we being limited to only a couple of tyres. Surely as long as they are Kumhos we should be free to choose any tyre from their range, and source them from whichever supplier we want. (I would probably use Mel

)

Topic 2. I don't think locking our two promoters in a room would do any good they would probably just go round and round in circles making no progress, and if they were not let out until they agreed they would probably die from starvation first

How about if they held a couple of informal drivers forums the night before a meeting. The promoters/organisers would be on hand to inform us of any significant changes affecting us and the drivers would be able to make any suggestions on how things might be improved.

If in twelve months time communication has not improved between our two promoters and our promoters and the competitors. How about an independant drivers group not affiliated to either side with no bias towards either side to mediate between them.

DFP · 17 Mar 2007, 17:25 (Ref:1869302)

Quote:

How about an independant drivers group not affiliated to either side with no bias towards either side to mediate between them.

Is this not what the brda was originaly set up for?

Chessmsport · 17 Mar 2007, 18:20 (Ref:1869326)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFP

Is this not what the brda was originaly set up for?

Essentially yes but things move on ! But what Silver Bullet says is a good idea so that the organisers know what the drivers want, maybe they have lost touch a bit.

Steve Gibson · 18 Mar 2007, 18:27 (Ref:1870449)

So we know what the Khumo tyres are all about and only time will tell if they are good, bad or indifferent.
It seems that the only thought on locking the rival promoters away would be they would starve to death before agreeing on things so let's move on

Topic 3 Classes
I know we have seen the discussions regarding Euro regs and National regs, so what is the opinion here should we move to Euro regs for the top classes and keep our own National classes and if so what do you think the class structure should be.
Years ago in the Croft Rallycross Championship we had Formula A, B, C and D plus the Colway tyres class which gave people a natural progression route. So what do you think would be the best layout of classes.