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7 Sep 2003, 17:41 (Ref:711026)
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#51 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 72
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Perusing such threads reminds me of why I rarily enter this site anymore.
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7 Sep 2003, 17:49 (Ref:711033)
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#52 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,276
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He has too much time.
What makes a sprint car star a winner in CART? Which one was the last? Certainly not the last 4 or 5 champions... |
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__________________
"Many people depend on motor racing for their livelihood, to them it is a business. To me, it is a sport." -Jim Clark |
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7 Sep 2003, 20:09 (Ref:711123)
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#53 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,153
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It doesn't proof that he would have become a winner in CART, but it does show that the guy can drive a racecar, and just because he has never gotten the chance to do it you cannot say he doesn't have the ability to do it. Just because he is a star in an oval-dominated series does not make him road-course challenged. Basically you already ruling him out before he even got a chance to race on road courses on a consistent basis. Aren't you always the one whining about giving "unknowns" a chance?
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7 Sep 2003, 20:12 (Ref:711127)
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#54 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,038
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This all coming from the same person that calls young drivers 'Blockerfeld' and 'Puntiago'...lol.
Last edited by Jay; 7 Sep 2003 at 20:13. |
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__________________
"I used to hate writing, but now I enjoy it. I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!" - Calvin and Hobbes |
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7 Sep 2003, 20:14 (Ref:711129)
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#55 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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7 Sep 2003, 20:17 (Ref:711131)
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#56 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,038
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no, I just think it's absolutely hilarious that you'd bash so many drivers, teams and people...now you're saying some drivers that have hardly turned a wheel right would do no doubt do better? ...sorry if that was changing the subject, I just find that hilarious!
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__________________
"I used to hate writing, but now I enjoy it. I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!" - Calvin and Hobbes |
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7 Sep 2003, 20:23 (Ref:711137)
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#57 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,153
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I bet it will be even funnier if you become aware of the fact that CART is not the only series where talented drivers can race in!
 What's that favorite quote of yours again? "Let's give them a few more races" (usually used after a driver crashed out of his 80th race)
Last edited by corkholio; 7 Sep 2003 at 20:25. |
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7 Sep 2003, 20:26 (Ref:711140)
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#58 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,125
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This is beginning to read more like a series of PM's than anything else, guys.
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__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus! |
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7 Sep 2003, 20:28 (Ref:711144)
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#59 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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7 Sep 2003, 20:30 (Ref:711147)
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#60 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 625
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I don't really know if Jeff Gordan could run road coarses or on the streets and be competative. Many drivers become specialized and can't run different formula and tracks types and be good at them all. Even within Champ Cars we see some drivers that do better on the streets or natural road coarses or on ovals. The great ones (Mario, Emmo, Nigel, Montoya...and many others I won't mention) adapt to anything with wheels and can get the max out of their machines. Having said that, I actually think Jeff Gordan is one that can run about anything that they strap him into. Like everybody else, he would need top equipment and a strong team behind him. When he ran JPM's F1 Williams car at the Indy road coarse, he seemed to adapt very quickly and run respectable time. I know an F! car has lots of driver aids and that makes a driver look better than they are. That may have affected things more than I realize. Still, when I sat down to watch the two swap cars, I expected for Montoya to run well, but brake too late, which he did. He learned what he needed to do and adapted. Gordan I expected to get bit by the F1 car and he really didn't. He admitted to braking too early and commented on the increadable level of grip the car had. I know think Gordan is better than only making left hand turns would leed my to believe. IMO if he were to test in the off season and run with Newman-Haas or Players he may not run away with the championship, but he might be in the points hunt.
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"The pedal doesn't care what your nationality is" Paul Gentilozzi |
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7 Sep 2003, 20:33 (Ref:711151)
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#61 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 625
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Sorry. Didn't proof read post before I sent it. Lots of errors
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__________________
"The pedal doesn't care what your nationality is" Paul Gentilozzi |
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7 Sep 2003, 21:12 (Ref:711181)
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#62 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 98
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It's judgemental folks like right here that never would've given Kenny Roberts a chance to ride a motogp 500 because of his upbringing on AMA flat tracks racing harleys. Until you've seen someone fail, you cannot say that they will in the future. Puntiago and Blockerfeld failed in the past, and are failing in the present. Many people, such as King Kenny, didn't fail in their limited surroundings, and later rose to the challenge to win a superior championship. In King Kenny's case, multiple Motorcycle Grand Prix 500cc World Championships, while in the process completely whipping the typically overhyped british champion, Barry Sheene.
Last edited by Superunknown; 7 Sep 2003 at 21:14. |
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__________________
"Doors are the most important thing that any auto company engineers for consumers. When I worked at the Mustang plant, cars wouldn't start and pieces would be falling off everywhere, but you can be damn sure those doors would ALWAYS work right." -Dr. Ashford |
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7 Sep 2003, 21:57 (Ref:711228)
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#63 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,038
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You're right cork, there are a ton of great drivers in different road racing series (such as ALMS, which I assume you're watching) and the many development series. However, until someone shows success on a road/street circuit, I don't care what they've done on the roundy-rounds. As far as I'm concerned, saying someone would do well road racing because they are good on ovals is like saying Wayne Gretzky would do well as a road race because of what he's done in hockey.
Superunknown, how have Monteiro or Haberfeld failed? They've beaten many Cart veterans this year. In Saturday's quali session in Denver, Mario was 6th and Tiago was 3rd...yeah, failing? For rookies with Reynards, I think they're doing very well. |
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__________________
"I used to hate writing, but now I enjoy it. I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!" - Calvin and Hobbes |
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7 Sep 2003, 23:01 (Ref:711267)
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#64 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 693
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__________________
When asked facetiously if he knew he’d ruined a good story line by beating Patrick, Wheldon responded bluntly, “Don’t care one bit.” |
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8 Sep 2003, 00:01 (Ref:711305)
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#65 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,038
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Your opinion, but the two are very very different. Different strategies, different racecraft. Historically, those broughtup on ovals (i.e. they've only been doing ovals) have not done very well when brought to road/street racing. Whereas those who were brought up on road/street seem to have little trouble going to ovals, and back again.
Some guys seem destined to one and not the other, like Sam Hornish..and probably Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart. |
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__________________
"I used to hate writing, but now I enjoy it. I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!" - Calvin and Hobbes |
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8 Sep 2003, 03:21 (Ref:711347)
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#66 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 693
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So what you are saying is a guy like Paul Tracy would be a better hockey player than Wayne Gretzky? I understand the point you were trying to make there, but you definitley went a bit overboard saying a hockey player would be just as good on a road course as an oval racer. Racing's racing and the really good racers would do well in anything. Remember Dale Earnhardt in the Daytona 24 a few years ago?
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__________________
When asked facetiously if he knew he’d ruined a good story line by beating Patrick, Wheldon responded bluntly, “Don’t care one bit.” |
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8 Sep 2003, 05:10 (Ref:711372)
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#67 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,153
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I swear the last time I saw Sears Point and Watkins Glen on TV they were road courses!
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8 Sep 2003, 06:45 (Ref:711416)
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#68 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 693
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Quote:
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__________________
When asked facetiously if he knew he’d ruined a good story line by beating Patrick, Wheldon responded bluntly, “Don’t care one bit.” |
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8 Sep 2003, 13:17 (Ref:711811)
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#69 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,147
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...it should be noted that most of the road racers end up in "middle of the pack" equipment - there's a reason those seats are available.
A notable exception is Ron Fellows, who was in DEI equipment, and we can see that during those races he was always at the sharp end of the field (barring weird yellows and poorly executed pit strategy). But the good drivers in NASCAR can drive, make no mistake. Not just the guys that come from dirt tracks, either. Dale Jr. aquitted himself nicely at Daytona 24h in 2001, and Kyle Petty can hustle a 911 pretty well, too. |
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__________________
... Since all men live in darkness, who believes something is not a test of whether it is true or false. I have spent years trying to get people to ask simple questions: What is the evidence, and what does it mean? -Bill James |
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8 Sep 2003, 15:22 (Ref:711953)
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#70 | |||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 98
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Quote:
ya, it's amazing how quickly they changed their relative track position at TOI (time of impact) once they got their fancy lil carbon fibre pieces from Poole |
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__________________
"Doors are the most important thing that any auto company engineers for consumers. When I worked at the Mustang plant, cars wouldn't start and pieces would be falling off everywhere, but you can be damn sure those doors would ALWAYS work right." -Dr. Ashford |
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8 Sep 2003, 15:47 (Ref:711985)
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#71 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 98
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Now to put your praises of Tiago and Haberfeld in context...
Haberfeld easily makes Tiago look like a chump. But that doesn't say much for Haberfeld's uncanny propensity to impact the crystal lattices of solid matter at great velocities. However their antics at Road America prove that they do not belong in a top level racing series. Road America being one of the worst cases of gross incompetency since Haberfeld is 11th in points with 60, 5 top 10 starts and 10 top 10 finishes in 15 starts to date. Tiago has only had 3 top 10 starts, and only 4 top 10 finishes, 2 10ths and a 9th. 20 points, 16th in standings ahead of 2 coyne cars and the PKR car. Considering there are 19 cars in this year's championship, those stats are nothing remotely resembling resume material. Keep in mind they've had the magic little pieces from Poole ever since Laguna, so for 8 rounds, >50% of the championship so far, their results are much like their F3K careers, completely and utterly un-noteworthy. Now keep in mind that some drivers can be midpackers and backmarkers and not be total jokes, those are ones who display competency in their vehicle. Dennis Vitolo comes to mind when thinking of these pair. Ah yes, they've beaten "many veterans." Sure  You keep telling yourself that... clinical depression is not a good thing, have to keep your spirits up mate. But if this is a field with "many veterans," let alone veterans these 2 have showed up, then I'm a monkey. A monkey that can beat Wayne Gretzky for a scoring title while being able to road race, just like Wayne.However it is good to know that you are not in charge of hiring drivers or riders for any racing outfit. King Kenny would be unemployed, Corvette would be without a dominating win at the Rolex, and a plethora of F3k checkbooks would be zipping around CART tracks alongside RHR Tiago and Haberfeld depleting the world's precious carbon fibre reserves. All the while those who you deem to be "roundyround" you summarily dismiss. Last edited by f1manoz; 11 Sep 2003 at 00:02. |
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__________________
"Doors are the most important thing that any auto company engineers for consumers. When I worked at the Mustang plant, cars wouldn't start and pieces would be falling off everywhere, but you can be damn sure those doors would ALWAYS work right." -Dr. Ashford |
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8 Sep 2003, 16:28 (Ref:712034)
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#72 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,147
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Quote:
edited to say, whoops, forgot PT's favourite clown on that list of pilots. Last edited by paul-collins; 8 Sep 2003 at 16:29. |
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__________________
... Since all men live in darkness, who believes something is not a test of whether it is true or false. I have spent years trying to get people to ask simple questions: What is the evidence, and what does it mean? -Bill James |
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8 Sep 2003, 16:34 (Ref:712044)
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#73 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,147
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[moderator hat]
Just a quick note - we're working on a consensus about derogatory nicknames, and since they're pretty pervasive (and not just on this forum, either - I'm quite enamoured of TGF, whatever you claim it stands for) we aren't yet prepared to do away with them. That said, we'd prefer the tone be set by not using them in thread titles, please. I've edited this thread's title for this purpose. Carry on, folks. [/moderator hat] Last edited by paul-collins; 8 Sep 2003 at 16:35. |
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__________________
... Since all men live in darkness, who believes something is not a test of whether it is true or false. I have spent years trying to get people to ask simple questions: What is the evidence, and what does it mean? -Bill James |
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10 Sep 2003, 16:03 (Ref:714227)
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#74 | |||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 98
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Quote:
point being hardly embaressing and hardly out of his element at the rolex. my $.02 is how derogatory is the name really? it's quite descriptive, it's not an explitive, and the ppl crying about it support that one driver and are the same hypocrites who want to bash other quite successful people just because they dont agree with their career. quite petty and puerile imo. Last edited by Superunknown; 10 Sep 2003 at 16:04. |
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__________________
"Doors are the most important thing that any auto company engineers for consumers. When I worked at the Mustang plant, cars wouldn't start and pieces would be falling off everywhere, but you can be damn sure those doors would ALWAYS work right." -Dr. Ashford |
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10 Sep 2003, 20:51 (Ref:714509)
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#75 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 529
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Quote:
 I guess I'm naive but watching/attending races gives me so much pleasure (and it's a great escape from the "real world"). I'm getting tired of people being so d**m negative about this...especially when there's so much negativity and uncertainty in the "real world"(which sucks, BTW  ).I had so much fun at the races I attended this season (Cleveland, Toronto, Mid Ohio). I've met so many wonderful people in the CART paddock over the last few years...and I don't forget those who have been nice to me. That includes team members,journalists,..... AND drivers. I enjoy all kinds of racing....period! ps....this place isn't as nasty or combative as other places, IMO. That's why I enjoy posting here. pss...BTW, Superunknown, I think Mr. Tracy was the one who initiated the "incident" at R.A.....not "Crasherfeld" or "Puntiago". psss....I agree on the use of "nicknames". It may be OK to use among friends. BUT in a public forum where people(aka, fans of that particular driver) could take offense, NO. Last edited by MLM; 10 Sep 2003 at 20:59. |
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