LMP2 Options - Chassis and/or Power

[Tim Northcutt]

From the looks of the Sebring entry list, there aren't a lot of people thinking outside of the box in this new class....

All but one car is a Lola B2K/40 (we have a Pilbeam), and all but one car (Intersport) has the Nissan engine...

Some Thoughts on Chassis:

Remeber, this is supposed to be the "privateer" class, so $$$ should be a consideration...

Why not try a...

Lucchini
Tampoli
WR
Rapier 6

Engine Options (other than what is now being run):

The JPX???

a 30.L - 3.4 L version of the Infiniti V-8 that raced in the IRL

(Remember, Specialty Engineering in Vancouver has bought these engines with the desire to sell them to sportscar teams...by dropping the displacement anywhere from 0.1 L to 0.5 L from it's current configuration, this could be a class-winning engine -- the torque curve issues can be solved inexpensively on that engine)

The Alfa engines

ANY of the GT class engines that are normally aspirated and homologated to fit the ACO guides on this....you get good reliability and power at a good price????


Of the options I've listed above on power, only the Infiniti conversion is an untried risk....but the payoff for that effort could be HUGE....

Am I missing something here????

People seem to be afraid to be creative....

Please feel free to add any of your own options to this list....

Maybe some people who plan to run in this class need a little reminder of the wide range of options out there...


Your thoughts would be appreciated....

[Tim Northcutt]

NOTE:

a typo in the Infiniti engine option...3.0 L

a 30 Litre enging might be a little too big....

[gttouring]

An inline six maybe too long? because Supra/IS300 I6's are known for their boost handling capabilities, and shrinking it to 2 litres and boosting it to a healthy JGTC 500+spec can be psosible for little. as well nissan 2 litres are famous for this asa well, the NIssan engines are pretty good...i would look at a 3.4 litre V8/10/12 or a turbo ex-JGTC motor as these are so tough to blow up-and the research and parts are available
I have priced out a 2.litre "customer" nissan engine with a turbo set up (Electromotive Engine management- KKK(blitz) Turbo and AEBS sleeves in the engine block and Titanium rods , Forged pistons,and vlave retainers, and valves, Stainless steel springs and proper sized injtectors.... at about 13K for the motor- the sleevs have been tested at 52lbs. of boost before cracking (3.4 bar approx.) so this baby could easily blast a healthy 550 hp or more at a modest 7K rpm- maybe even higher as the engine is likely to do, but lets not stress it too much. There are a lot of good small companies out there and a little research is all that's needed, i would build it my self ARP studs naturally, and keep cost down, the big expense here is the testing i car- vibrations and oil system a dry sump would need a high idle, so the useble power band would need to be higher than 7K...
this is to fit into LMP2 rules, but The motor could probably push the 750Kg car upfront with a proper control system- it would run an alternaor and starter to keep cost down and reliability up, and shave weight elsewhere.
the block so you know weighs less than a Aluminum Chevy 2 valve head- from a 350...
ah motors the heart of the beasts we love.

I could wrangle up specific parts builders if needed.
but then for a biult already package i would go for a turbo 2 liter 4 from A JGTC car, it seem like one of the best reliable proven deals- any thing else is a big gamble ie. home construction from GT Touring motors, or a "new" 3.4 litre Infinity V8- although good option here, possible race winner huh?

[LC2guy]

The only other alternatives i can think of Tim off the top of my head are the Peugeot V6 that Pierre Bruneau had in his Pilbeam that he raced at the Le Mans 1000KM and the VW Turbo that has won Le Mans 675 class repeatedly over the last few years. Is this Turbo allowed ?

[Tim Northcutt]

Great start, GT Touring....

You make excellent points....

One note....within your text you mention V-10s and V-12s in the context of a 3.4 L...

for the LMP2 class, the maximum cylinders allowed for an engine are 8

I like the JGTC-raced options you list....

Now, give some thought to somethin on this side of the pond....

A midget engine that is about 2.7 L - 3.0 L as a Four or a Six cylinder....I like the Six option better...

A very cheap option that also would have great potential and the ability to crank some horses with the right builder...

If one were to open the box a little wider, we talked about doing the old Aurora V-8s (3.5 L) as a cheap solution with turbos, etc. for the LMP1 class...

Like the Infiniti engine mentioned above, drop that Aurora down 0.1-0.5 L and you also would have a good option...

Remember, you can buy those for as cheap as $18,000-$22,000 on the net...

[Tim Northcutt]

From what I understand, turbos are allowed up to a max of 2.0 L and up to six cylinders...that hasn't changed for this class....nor has the race-built or non-GT Class homologated engines up to 3.4 L and 8 cylinders for a normally-aspirated option...

The new option is the Homologated for GT Class normally-aspirated only engines up to 4.0 L...

So if the VW turbo in 675 was legal, it should be here also...


What About Any Chassis????

Or does the "L" stand for "Lola" in this class????

[gttouring]

easily look at the V6 or 4 cylinder sprint car motors, and since we can go as big as 3.4 litres a V6 at 3.4 litre built by pink may be a good little plant although extracting another 200 or so horses is the expensive challenge.
we have pilbeam and lOla for chassis...WR, DBA, didn't Picchio build one? this isn't exaclty a huge list is it?
can a LMP1 chassis (provided it is lightenough witha smaller engine) work here? it would have to be homolgated, and how could it get to run in LMP2? i imagine Panoz LMPO7's would work very well here, as well as a few others.
can any SCCA DSR car be homologated to LMP2? there is a very cool ist out in this months Sportcar Mgazine, what about an LMGTP2(lmp2 witha roof- is it possible?) because then we can entertain VEMAC and GARAIYA (in JGTC GT500 and GT300 respectively)

[Tim Northcutt]

I like the possibility of the Tampoli chassis...in the LMES thread, there is an entry aboutthis car as an entry over there, and someone posted a link for me to click on to see pics of it....

I also have to say that a Lucchini seems to be a solid option to consider as well...and there should be plenty of them out there...but I don't know how adaptable that chassis is in the engine option department...

Yes...Ed Pink would be one of the first guys I'd call as a builder...

But if I tried the Aurora option with reduced displacement, I'd have to call Rick Long at Speedway engines....

He did the Panther Racing builds in IRL, and I belive did the "Chevy-Cosworth" work for them mid-season last year to fit it and set it up for competition...

He'll learn and see a lot when it comes to doing the 3.0 L conversions of the existing motors for IRL to prepare for Indy....

He'd have a leg up ona any other builder with that Aurora or IRL engine conversion for an LMP2....

[LC2guy]

What about someone investing in a Courage C65 JPX for LMP2 in ALMS. I think this will prove to be the car to beat in LMES. 4th overall in the Le Mans 1000km was pretty impressive.

[Fogelhund]

Have to wonder aloud, why someone doesn't try the engine out of the Porsche GT3 RSR. Reliable as could be, and makes some decent power.

[jhansen]

I agree, the C65 seems to be the real deal. But, I tend to look at the ALMS LMP2 lineup a bit differently than Tim does. It may look as if no one is thinking out of the box, but perhaps money is more an issue. I believe these teams are going with your "shoestring" concept Tim. This class just lends itself to that kind of thinking. Didn't you find out that the B2K/40's are readily available and affordable? Although, I must confess to not knowning the prices on some of your other options Tim. Perhaps cost is more the issue here.

[KA]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt

What About Any Chassis????

Or does the "L" stand for "Lola" in this class????

I guess choice of chassis is going to be influenced by three issues- first and most importantly, ACO homologation- obviously the Lola and Pilbeam (or the WR for that matter...) are OK as they've competed in ACO races in the past- but thinking of some of the more 'obscure' former SR2 chassis like the Picchio or Rapier, are they actually ACO-legal?

Second- availability- for the US-based teams running in LMP2 in the ALMS, the Lola is easily available and a known quantity, with good backup over spares etc- this must make it a better bet than something like a Tampolli or Lucchini. Something like the Courage, which from the performance angle may well be a better bet than a Lola, would be a real step into the unknown for an ALMS team. In Europe, the situation may be different, and so far LMP2 in LMES seems to have a wider variety of chassis.

Thirdly- performance: It's a difficult one to assess, as the Lola hasn't encountered any of the other ex-SR2 chassis -other than the Pilbeam- in great numbers on any regular basis, but the only Lola (the Swedish SRTS car) to run in FIASCC won the SR2 championship, and when FIASCC SR2 cars ventured over to the states to run in a couple of GA races a few years back, they weren't on the pace of the 'local' Lola opposition. It could be that of the ex-SR2 chassis available for LMP2, the Lola is the best bet on performance

Converting an ex-LMP900 chassis to LMP2 is a bit of an unknown quantity, and so far no all-new LMP2 chassis are on the market, so for an ALMS team at least, the Lola seems to be the most attractive option all round...

[KA]

Originally posted by Fogelhund
Have to wonder aloud, why someone doesn't try the engine out of the Porsche GT3 RSR. Reliable as could be, and makes some decent power.

Didn't Gunnar try putting the Porsche flat-6 into a Lola B2K/40 for LMP675 a couple of years ago, and run into regulation difficulties because of the need to modify the chassis to fit it?

[jhansen]

Here's a link to a Lola B2K/40 with a Porsche flat-6 in it. Although it was ran to SRP1 spec in Grand Am. It's for sale though.

http://962.com/historic_porsches/index.htm

[gttouring]

Porsche 917-020
can this be homolgated into LMP2?
or Porsche 962C-118 or Porsche 917-015
just curious, can an older design be made to work in modern regulations? if so, which older ones might fit the bill conserning curretn rule sets? We already see the Panoz GTR is coming back- although i feel it should be entered in GTS not LMGTP, come on Panoz build a Batmobile for everyone!

[billnchristy]

The Gunnar B2k/40 was a porsche twin turbo 6 designed for LMP900/SR1.

Gunnar ran a GT1 with a GT3 engine in it in GA last year.

Ive been saying that for a while (use the Porsche engine) and the Ferrari 360GT engine would be a good powerplant too.

Also, if you really think about it, these engines dont really have to put out a ridiculous amount of power, so looking from the street wouldnt be a horrible choice either. 450hp is not a very hard number to reach with the right equipment.

How about a Subaru Boxer 4 turbo?

Seems to me that the LM2 field in Europe will be a lot more full than here, there are a ton of pilbeams and Luchinnis (are they legal?) that ran in FIA...

[Fogelhund]

Of course the SRP1 car was a 962 twin turbo motor. The LMP2 cars are so light, it just seems like a no brainer to throw the GT3 engine in there, unless it would be hard to configure.

[Tim Northcutt]

Some Thoughts:

jhansen: I'm trying to find out what a used Lucchini or Tampoli would cost....but I found Lola B2K/40s on the net for $80,000-$120,000
and the high price included a Nissan 3.0 V-6 engine race ready! Maybe that is one of the cars that is being run in ALMS this year....I haven't checked the wek to see if it got bought....

KA: You make a VERY strong and logical case....and it is obviously what teams have done in terms of availability and access....keep in mind that there will be Lucchinis racing in LMES this year, and there is a team looking for a paying driver over there to be part of an effort that will race a Tampoli chassis....something has to be happening there that will make those cars ACO available...

Fogelhund: That's exactly the point I was trying to make...there are plenty of them around and the rules give teams the opportunity to use those engines in theis class...yet we see ZERO of them in cars thus far...I was "Thinking Aloud" on this issue as well....


BillNChristy: Your posts in other threads on the Porsche and the 360 Modena engines prompted me to raise this issue...I also think they would be a safe bet for good power plus reliability...

GTTouring: Keep in mind that anything that is "Grandfathered" into this class has to be the aluminum-skinned cars and not composite...to be a composite chassis in LMP2, it has to be 2004 specs....and I don't know if that incorporates "HYbrids" that would be converted to meet 2004 specs.....

Maybe someone else can help us with that question...

I like the idea of a Subaru engine, or other WRC engines as options, provided their displacement and air intake systems (normally-aspirated or "compressed" air systems)meet ACO rules....

Subaru also makes a 6-cylinder boxster (spelling?) engine...

LAST NOTE:

What does the new Courage C65 cost????

If it is steep, it may not be in the budget ranges of "privateers"

[gttouring]

if a Dp can figure it out so can a Proper prototype.
and if the Porsche motor is a go
then yes the turbo boxer4 subaru is great, torquey and mega
cheap too, and the mitsubishi Lancer evo VIII engine is a winner here too.
the transaxles would be the harder portion of the set up to find- i bet thses would be a bit more expensive too.
it isn't unusual for import hotrodders (tuners haha)
to get 400-500- or 700 hp out of a 2 litre with a turbo or even a smaller drag motor, but since we are talking endurance here a 500+ 2 litre is very well within reach at many places.
like my house, with the right equipment and $$ not over 15K i bet i can build one with availble parts and make a real killer turbo 4, such is the market and the technology these days, shame no one is really trying it.

[noise boy 2]

A thought on this, I believe that the reason we are seeing so many lola b2k/10 cars on the entry is that they will be able to turn them into b4k/40 cars next season and be set for the forseeable future in the lmp2 class. No other chassis manufacturer has committed to an upgrade package for existing equipment. So I say cheers to lola for taking the bull by the horns. Robert

[KA]

Originally posted by jhansen
Here's a link to a Lola B2K/40 with a Porsche flat-6 in it. Although it was ran to SRP1 spec in Grand Am. It's for sale though.

http://962.com/historic_porsches/index.htm

That definitely looks like the Gunnar car- from memory, it started out as a project for LMP675 in the ALMS back in 2001 or so, and was supposed to debut at Sebring that year, but they had some kind of problem over the regulations and I don't think it ever raced- it was later converted to take a 3.0 turbo for Grand-Am, although I don't know from memory if they ever raced it in GA either....

[KA]

Originally posted by noise boy 2
A thought on this, I believe that the reason we are seeing so many lola b2k/10 cars on the entry is that they will be able to turn them into b4k/40 cars next season and be set for the forseeable future in the lmp2 class. No other chassis manufacturer has committed to an upgrade package for existing equipment. So I say cheers to lola for taking the bull by the horns. Robert

I'd forgotten about that! Looks like Lola may have the momentum when it comes to selling 'new' LMP2 chassis as well, as they're going to have a fair number of existing B2K/40 runners looking to upgrade when the new car becomes available....

[billnchristy]

thats the gunnar lola alright.

good thing about it is its got a carbon fibre floor instead of the wood floor the B2k/40 uses.

[JAG]

For LMP2, the engine will need to produce 500BHP minimum. The restrictors are the same as 2002 LMP675 I belive.

As for engines, how about a Ford Cosworth/ Citroen/Mitsubish etc. WRC engine.

These can put out over 700BHP without restrictors. 500BHP would be very easy and reliable. The WRC engines must be the amongst the most higly developed and efficient around. The fact that the WRC restrictors, limit power to around 300-350BHP means the engines are hugely refined in all areas to get the most from that power.

[dretceterini]

There are any number of engines that even with the mandated restrictors, are capable of producing over 500 horsepower. I think reliability is as, if not more important than ultimate horsepower figures. A reliable engine of 425-450 horsepower should be a winner at most events. Looks to me that the top contenders so far should be the Courage and the Lola with the 3.4 liter Judd V-8