Williams F1

richard_sykes · 3 Jul 2005, 21:25 (Ref:1346358)

Williams seem so have a dream team of engineers but can’t seem to pull it all together.

BUT

What engine do you think/want they will have next year. If they decided not to go BMW would Cosworth be the best option, they used to use a V8 they must have a lot of data/experience over the likes of Ferrari in V8`s and F1?

Williams Cosworth, some british beef that would be.

hobophobic · 3 Jul 2005, 21:54 (Ref:1346380)

I think that their best bet would be Honda, if they could get the engines then maybe they could poach the factory support from BAR in the same way Mclaren poached Honda from them in the 80's.

richard_sykes · 3 Jul 2005, 22:00 (Ref:1346387)

Will be gutted if Williams has to go.

Just the thought of a Williams Cosworth and Button.

Lets hope they get sorted out.

hobophobic · 3 Jul 2005, 22:05 (Ref:1346394)

Do you think Button will still goto williams tho? if I was him I would be staying put. Works engine deal vs customer deal is a no brainer to me.

vatuloa · 3 Jul 2005, 22:06 (Ref:1346396)

The problem started at the Indy they were well back on the grid you would have noticed this year that Williams has to Qualifly up front and they then go backwards except for cars in front runing into problems. They are down on power and handling problems are cause by a lack of testing.

BSchneiderFan · 3 Jul 2005, 23:13 (Ref:1346440)

Button may have no choice.

Kidzer · 3 Jul 2005, 23:23 (Ref:1346444)

Doesn't his contract have various bits in it that require williams to have a works engine supply and the like?

**Born Racer** · 3 Jul 2005, 23:29 (Ref:1346446)

One thing that strikes me- will BMW really wish to supply Williams with engines when they may beat their own new works team?!

Toyota supplied Jordan with engines this year, and Red Bull will have Ferrari engines next year, but importantly neither of these were likely to beat their suppliers' teams.

BSchneiderFan · 4 Jul 2005, 00:10 (Ref:1346456)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidzer

Doesn't his contract have various bits in it that require williams to have a works engine supply and the like?

My understanding is not, that that was a requirement of BAR keeping him but not Williams taking him back, but I could be wrong.

Silk Cut Jaguar · 4 Jul 2005, 01:00 (Ref:1346466)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

One thing that strikes me- will BMW really wish to supply Williams with engines when they may beat their own new works team?!

Toyota supplied Jordan with engines this year, and Red Bull will have Ferrari engines next year, but importantly neither of these were likely to beat their suppliers' teams.

In a world where common sense rules BMW would be willing to supply Williams with equal spec engines because the chance of having three BMW powered cars on the podium is surely more important than winning a petty squabble with Sir Frank.

Sadly, common sense is lacking in F1 these days.

Kicking-back · 4 Jul 2005, 05:33 (Ref:1346542)

BMW have said they fully expect Sauber-BMW to be beaten by Williams next season, regardless of whether Frank is using their engines or not.

Glen · 4 Jul 2005, 08:19 (Ref:1346595)

It looks increasingly more difficult to beat anyone by using a BMW engine. Theissen's post-France comments are snotty and facile - as has been pointed out by Williams management, the Williams team would not dream of coming out after a disasterous race like that and simply blaming their engine partner (because they are partners, or should be) - so for BMW to blankly say that no problems were experienced with the engines (and infer tha everything is the fault of Williams) is a blinking cheek - conveniently setting aside the obvious shortfall in power the engine has at the moment, which doesn't exactly help.

alfasud · 4 Jul 2005, 10:19 (Ref:1346691)

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard_sykes

What engine do you think/want they will have next year. If they decided not to go BMW would Cosworth be the best option, they used to use a V8 they must have a lot of data/experience over the likes of Ferrari in V8`s and F1?

This could almost be another topic (mods can split it out of this discussion if they wish)... but I'm wondering if everyone thinks that Cosworth would build the best 90 degree 2.4L V8, because they used to build the very successful DFV, DFY, DFZ... DFR from 1967-1991 and later on, the 75 degree HB Cosworth?

At least a lot of people seem to be expressing that point of view

But is Cosworth's experience back in the 60's/70's/80s' really relevant to building an engine today? Those engines were 150kg+ so hardly a template for a modern 2.4L V8 that will be in the region of 95kg (at least that's my understanding?) and of course the HB is not a 90 degree V8.

Futhermore Cosworth are not the only ones with experience building a naturally aspirated, quad cam, 90 degree V8 with flat plane crankshaft and dry sump. There are a range of V8's that have appeared in cars with designations like 288 GTO, F40, 355 and 360... the later being used in LM GT2/N-GT competition and although it's my understanding that Ferrari don't do their 360 Modena racing program in-house, I'm sure they have access to that data.

At least one other racing V8 engine springs to mind... the BMW M3-GTR and don't those DTM cars use V8's?

However if I was selecting a supplier for a 2.4L V8 for 2006 F1 my critera would be...

1. Experience in building a successful 3.0L V10 19,000rpm+ racing engine.
2. Experience in building a naturally aspirated, quad cam, 90 degree V8 with flat plane crank and dry sump... and that would be a secondary consideration.

BMW seem to have been caught out by the rules changes this year but I wouldn't bet against either BMW or Ferrari engines for 2006.

I'm fact, I'm beginning to wonder if BMW might be putting more effort into the V8 engine program than the ongoing development of the current v10?

Glen · 4 Jul 2005, 10:49 (Ref:1346706)

Previous V8 experience is completely irrelevant I think - all the basics for that format are very well known. The materials and other design considerations are going to be subject to quite a lot of new restrictions too, so very exotic constructions are also going to be less important. What will come to the fore is probably integration with the chassis and aerodynamics design - making the quality of the partnership more imortant than ever. Unfortunately.

Mark Webber · 4 Jul 2005, 11:05 (Ref:1346721)

Williams is on a downward sprial and has been for some time . I just hope Mark has a out clause

mabs_nsx · 4 Jul 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1346833)

Williams Honda

Hazza · 4 Jul 2005, 13:11 (Ref:1346846)

Williams to announce a deal to run Stone Brothers engines next yeah? Why? Everyone else is :P

**GTRMagic** · 4 Jul 2005, 13:42 (Ref:1346869)

I reckon SBR could nail together some nice Ford 5 Litre SVO V8s... rev limited to 7500 rpm of course

foreversideways · 5 Jul 2005, 17:56 (Ref:1348029)

If Williams start to really slidedown the grid, what real competition is left. Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda ?, BMW ? (12Cars) I have this feeling that Ecclestone / Moseley are setting this lot up for a massive fall. Barriers to entry to the F1 scene with these sorts of teams involved are massive. It will only take one or two to buckle under the strain of the cost and or a change of direction at board level and it will fall apart with the dynamic duo ready to pick up the pieces.I have always believed that this level of manufacturer envolement was bad for the sport On another issue if i was Button i would race for nothing to stay with BAR Honda next year.

**Adam43** · 5 Jul 2005, 18:27 (Ref:1348053)

12 cars of real competition. A lot more than most years of F1 since 1950!

JeremySmith · 6 Jul 2005, 01:28 (Ref:1348384)

William's Cosworth...BMW please do not slam the door on the way out!

Paarma · 6 Jul 2005, 01:52 (Ref:1348390)

Williams Asiatech!

Dutton · 6 Jul 2005, 02:58 (Ref:1348410)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

12 cars of real competition. A lot more than most years of F1 since 1950!

Pfff! Everyone knows that crushing dominance, large performance gaps and the like have only appeared in the last 15 years!

The 1950's/60's/70's/early 80's saw season after season of absolute wheel-to-wheel, non-stop action where all teams ran incredibly close together all the time.

I just don't understand how you could suggest otherwise!

JohnSSC · 6 Jul 2005, 03:16 (Ref:1348415)

Except for when the wheels fell off, or the clutches failed or the engines vibrated apart!

Oh yes, Dutton, the Good Old Days were Grand, weren't they? Every race a cliffhanger and as I recall, my favorite driver GillesGrahamNikiJimMarioJackieFrancoisJamesAlainAyrtonNigelReneJohnKeke won every race in a dashing manner!

Youth is wasted on the young, isn't it?

OZ_HCR32 · 6 Jul 2005, 04:39 (Ref:1348431)

Im not in any real hurry top say the BMW engine is no good this year. It is possible the Williams chassis is flawed and the aero they are having to run is hurting their straight line speed?

That said, i think there is a fair chance that Williams will stick with BMW next year, as it will take BMW a few years to get competitive, and in the meantiem they would be hoping to have some form of success in F1 in the meantime, even if it is being enjoyed by Williams using their engines.

But who knows Frank and his boys liek springing surprises

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