Martini F2

[Euromontagna]

I think Martini is interesting mark with a big history. Where to start to learn more about types and chassis info?

[allenbrown]

Here's a good place to start.

After the MK16, MK19 and MK22 'proper' F2 cars, one or two extra MK22-ish cars were built for hill climbs in France in 1978 before the MK25 was built for Frequelin in 1979. Martini then built about 3 MK28s for 1980 and started to dominate French hillclimbs. At times in 1980 Martinis were finishing 1-2-3-4 in French events.

Allen

[Euromontagna]

some adds accordings AtlasF1 forum...

Martini Mk.77 chassis 01 should be first run in 1997
Mk.69 chassi 01 made in 1993
...

[Chris Townsend]

Mk7 [1971]
001 - Jacques Coulon
002 - Patrick Compain
007 - Works: Francois Migault
008 - Francois Lacarrau
all observed at Pau
I think nine built in all
At Pau without chassis number known are
Jose Dolhem, Joel Auvray, Guy Dhotel, Lucien Guitteny [so these I guess are numbers 3-6
later in season comes a car for Francois Rabbione


Mk9 1972 At least 12 built
004 Antar: Jacques Coulon [can't remember where I got this, but it was observed number in press]
Pre Monaco only four cars appear:
Works for Joel Auvray; Shell France for Bernard Beguin and the Antar team cars of Philippe Albera and Coulon. If Coulon is 004 then the other three perhaps account for the first three chassis

At Monaco the following debut:
Ray Carruthers; Guy Dhotel; John Bisignano; Miguel Coarasa; Jose Dolhem; Cliff Haworth;
At Chimay debuts Philippe Munier
Later in season Patrice Compain


Mk12 1973
006 Bernard Chevanne [observed at UK F3 round]

Do we have any F1R observations of Martinis at Monaco or the joint British/French F3 rounds from 1972/73?

Chris

[Euromontagna]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Here's a good place to start.

After the MK16, MK19 and MK22 'proper' F2 cars, one or two extra MK22-ish cars were built for hill climbs in France in 1978 before the MK25 was built for Frequelin in 1979. Martini then built about 3 MK28s for 1980 and started to dominate French hillclimbs. At times in 1980 Martinis were finishing 1-2-3-4 in French events.

Allen

I would like to know which types were special built for hillclimbs, special F2 hillclimb cars. Like Mk.69 for example...

[allenbrown]

My understanding is that it is not Mk for Mark but MK for Martini-Knight. So it's the MK7, not the Mark 7.

Originally Posted by Euromontagna

I would like to know which types were special built for hillclimbs, special F2 hillclimb cars. Like Mk.69 for example...

1981 Martinis in French hillclimbs according to the Echappement yearbook:

I don't believe these guys swapped cars during the season so this is just different Echappement stringers using different terms for a modified car.

Mieusset, Courage and Grobot had new MK32-BMWs but Tarres and Sourd changed cars. Sourd had started the season with the Stalder team's MK32 but they had then rebuilt his crashed 1980 MK25 on a MK28 chassis. This car was described as a MK31, MK29/32, MK28/32, MK25/32 and even MK25!

Meanwhile, just to make sure historians have no chance, Carburol bought a MK32 to replace their ex-Mieusset/Sourd/Frequilin MK25 only to build a 'new' MK25 when they found Tarres didn't like the MK32. This car was described as a MK28/32, MK28 or MK25.

Also, Lapierre had a MK29, Terrien a MK25, Albinet a MK28 and Ribager a 1600cc MK28.

In 1982, some cars change hands but no new model of Martini appears. Tarres and Sourd in their 1981 cars and Debias in a MK32 dominate the season.

In 1983, Tarres acquired a Martini "T01" but that might turn out to be a development of his earlier cars. Mid-1984 he gets a MK43.

Allen

[Euromontagna]

thanks... it seems to be difficult...

[Dan Rear]

Did the later F2 Martinis from 1983-84 have an 'MK' no.? IIRC they were called 001 & 002 in period, how does this correspond to the MK series?

[AMICALEMANS]

Just to let you know :

MK is for Martini Knight (Knight was for two brothers who helped Tico Martini, they open the first french racng school in Magn Cours, with Tico)

Its seems that the last Martini F2 did not have an MK (i don know why ?) but F3 still have it until the end of the brand

http://racing.oreca.fr/index.aspx?news=185

[Chris Townsend]

The first few models are prefixed MW [I guess for Martini-Winfield] and the first that seems to carry MK are the 1971 models though that year's F3 is also sometimes described as an MW7.

Here are the early models
MW1. F.France spec for racing school 1968
MW1B. F3 car, 1968
MW2 F.France 1969
MW3 F3 1969
MW4 F.France 1970
MW4B School car 1970
MW5 F3 1970 [There is a MK4, chassis 014 for sale on Len Selby's site, said to be Laffite's F3 car.] This would suggest it's an MW5, and the numbering also suggests that at that point Martini were numbering cars in overall sequence rather than within model - making this the 14th built - as I can't find 14 F3 Martinis in 1970
MK6 F.France 1971
MK7 F3 1971
MK8 F.Renault 1972 might be a MK8B
MK9 F3 1972
MK9A F.Atlantic 1972 one prototype built and raced in UK late 1971, now for sale in France.
MK10 FR 1972

Chris

[allenbrown]

The Martini book has the MK4 as the first MK.

There were 8 MW1s, 1 MW1B, 12 MW2s, 1 MW3, 22 MK4s, 2 MK4Bs and 2 MK5s. So I can believe MK4 chassis 014 but as a Formula France, not a F3. If it was ex-Laffite, it was the car he used in FF.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

MK7
I now make it 12 built.
Eight cars appear Nogaro 12 April Compain [1]; Coulon [2]; Migault [7]; Lacarrau [8] plus Albera, Rabbione, Guitteny and Dolhem
At Pau they are joined by Dhotel and Auvray [9 and 10?]. Albera is missing having bent his car at Barcelona the previous week.
At Montlhery 23 May appears Perrier [011?]
At Clermont Ferrand 20 June appears Morel [012]
Since they all appear together at some point these seem to be twelve different cars.

Chris

[allenbrown]

And douze is what the Martini book says too. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier - I sometimes forget what I've got here.

[Chris Townsend]

How many MK9s 13 or 14?
Plus the MK9A

[allenbrown]

Just seven. And the MK9A isn't mentioned.

However, there is a comment on p28 that Tico would not hesitate to modify a MK8 (F.Renault) if necessary. There were 21 of them.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Seven!!

There were eight at Magny Cours 1 May 72
Albera; Beguin; Munier; Coulon [004 debut]; Auvray; Carruthers; Dolhem; Dhotel
and nine at Monaco, where Bisgnano, Coarasa and Haworth show up with new cars and Beguin and Munier are missing.
and eight at Rouen, where Richard Knight debuts

I think that book might not entirely account for all the cars...

Do we have any F1R observations of Martinis from Monaco or the joint British/French races in 72?

Chris

[allenbrown]

The list of cars produced isn't in a nice tidy grid. By year, it adds up to 253 but by model to only 245. However, for that year, the 29 cars built does match up with the 21 MK8s, 7 MK9s and 1 MK10. Would Formula Renaults have been eligible for F3 races?

Allen

[jamesl]

I have what I think is Mk42/44 Martini body work. Its no use to me and if anybody wants it for a rebuild / project it would be very cheap.

[Euromontagna]

I am on one national hillclimb race, there is car called Martini F2. Of course, it is not F2, but I would like to know, what kind of Martini it is, if it is trully Martini... Can you help me? THANKS a lot...

[funformula]

The Martini F2 shown above is a MK39 with a redesigned bodywork to make it look like a modern racecar.
I don´t think it has a chance to win a design award ;-)

[Alan Brown]

MN 9-12-76 had an interesting profile on Tico Martini. The article brought back memories of his first "device" which I saw at Great Auclum in August 1962. The programme called it a T.T.S.P.L. We know it as the Martini Special and it set a new hill record and was first in RAC run-off.

However, the article has more material on the "real" Martini cars. In addition, the following week's issue had a report on a press day for Elf-backed cars which obviously featured Martinis. Hopefully what follows is of interest. The first car (MW1) was built in 1967 as a 1500 Ford-engined school car (Winfield racing school). The first F3 car was built for Etienne Vigoureux for the 1968 season: it was driven by Jean-Luc Salomon in 1969 who had a road accident and Jacques Lafitte took over. A photo of Lafitte is captioned MW4. I wonder if it was the original F3 car. There was a one-off Atlantic car, basically an updated F3 car, which was driven by Mike Knight in England in late 1971; then it was sold to a Swiss driver for hill climbing.

The first monocoque was the one-off MK16 used by Lafitte to win the 1975 European F2 championship. MN 3-4-75 notes at as MK16/001. The following year Tambay had MK19/001 and Arnoux MK16/001 at Thruxton according to the MN report. It seems that two of the wide-bodied MK19s were used in the season as there are references to the MK16 being the spare car at various races. At the Elf press day MK19 chassis 002 was available to drive. It was said to have been rebuilt around a new tub after Tambay's crash at Enna The report implies that this was the prototype MK19. So, what about 001 as reported earlier in the season? Looking ahead to the 1977 season, Tico Martini was expecting to build at least 5 new MK22 models. Looking at the MN report of the Easter F2 Thruxton race Arnoux was in MK22/03, Pironi in MK22/04 and the Minardi team ran Giancarlo Martini in MK22/05 (all Renault V6). What about 01 and 02? Were they the earlier F2 cars? In this case there was only one proper MK19, but this is at odds with various race reports. Another possibility is that they were built and sold to someone like Jimmy Mieusseut. Xavier Lapeyre is sometimes mentioned with a MK22 but this appears to be an updated MK19 (BMW engine).

[Alan Brown]

A couple of extra points from trawling through MN. Arnoux used an updated MK19 at Hockenheim in April 1977 because of the damage to his car at Thruxton earlier in the month. MN seems to invent a new model as it is called MK19U. Did this go to Lapeyre, but re-engined? At the Nurburgring meeting Arnoux had a new cat to replace the damaged Thruxton car. Presumably a MK22?

[allenbrown]

The history of the earlyMartinis is very interesting because it deepens the mystery around the Martini used by Jean-Louis Staïano in French hillclimbing in 1969. It must have been a very early car but I can't work out which.

[Alan Brown]

MN and formula2.net both have Jimmy Mieusset failing to qualify at Nogaro in 1977 in a MK19 BMW.

MN 28-7-07 reports Mieusset won the Chamrousse hill climb in a MK22 BMW.

MN 4-8-77 reports that Mieusset has decided to switch from the new MK22 he acquired at the start of the year to a Ralt (see Allen Brown's post 121 on the Ralt RT1 thread). It also states that he failed to qualify in both F2 races. I can only find the Nogaro reference in MN. formula2.net has non-appearances in a MK22 at both Silverstone and Rouen and in a MK19 at Hockenheim.

formula2.net records Marc Sourd in a MK19 BMW at Estoril, MN does not identify the model but says it was Mieusset's car. In the preview to the seaon's finale at Donington in October, MN notes that Ecurie Norev Racing has two MK22s entered for Mieusset and Sourd. The former does not appear but Sourd finishes 17th in a MK22 according to MN or a MK19 according to formula2.net. This latter source also states that he did not start a MK22, implying that he may have practised a MK22.

I have checked the recent thread on TNF on Martini cars, but am none the wiser. I am confused! Did Mieusset have one or two cars? Or more? Were they MK19 and/or MK22? How much inaccurate/confused reporting at the time?

[Chris Townsend]

MK22-001 works Arnoux Hockenheim team spare with long wheelbase, also raced car at Enna
MK22-003 works Arnoux Silverstone MN chassis no given
MK22-004 works Pironi Silverstone MN chassis no given
MK22-005 Martini Silverstone MN chassis no given, probably his car all season.

Lapeyre, previously having used a MK19 is credited with not qualifying a MK22 at Rouen, and then back in a MK19 at Enna...

Autosport says of Sourd's car at Estoril that it was a MK22 built for Mieusset for hillclimbs at the start of the year. My guess is that Mieusset had two cars, an MK19 which he used for F2 and as a spare hillclimb car [though I too can only find one occasion on which he shows up at an F2 meeting] and then this car "MK22-002" which was his principal hillclimb car.

Chris